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From: -jg on 28 Jun 2010 17:53
On Jun 29, 9:28 am, -jg <jim.granvi...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> perhaps this ?http://www.rowley.co.uk/msp430/basic.htm
>  ( tho it is a bit primitive )

Just thinking some more about this, and that line# basic might be too
much low-level work to bring into usable form. esp Debug wise.

An alternative path, could be to spin a variant of
something like this ?

http://sourceforge.net/projects/bcx-basic/

This is a Basic to C - so you'd massage that, to allow a PC-Choice-
Basic to
debug at original source code, and also massage the C output, to
have the original Basic lines as prefix comments so then the file will
correctly Step debug on any C-Flow system, but look like Basic to a
novice.
It also lest them see C, on a read-only basis. (initially)
This is also quite Core-Agnostic, and PC testable too.

ASM could probably also be supported, on a relatively simple pass-thru
to any C compiler supporting in-line asm.

-jg



From: Hans-Bernhard Bröker on 28 Jun 2010 18:01
Am 28.06.2010 20:44, schrieb Jon Kirwan:

> I wanted DIP because I want the _actual_ micro piece used in the
> final project to cost very little,

I don't think that's a valid line of reasoning. I seriously doubt that
the part being DIP has a guaranteed positived correlation to its
cheapness. Not these days, any more.

I imagine the overhead in bond wire length, plastic material and pins
must be a major factor in the total price for microcontrollers by now
--- those with few enough pins to be eligible for putting in DIPs in the
first place, anyway. Not to mention economy of scale. I.e. even the
same chip in a different housing should generally be cheaper than the
DIP version.

Let's face it, guys: cheaply socketable DIP is a dead parrot. The only
reason it's still sitting upright on its perch is that its feet have
been nailed to it.
From: steve on 28 Jun 2010 18:56
On Jun 27, 5:22 pm, Jon Kirwan <j...(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote:
> I need to think about a class that will include both young
> and old, all of whom have very little experience but at least
> the hope of trying to enjoy such a class on microcontrollers
> without knowing anything much about what they may be getting
> themselves into.  (And I mean for people who might be 15
> years old or even 75 years old!  No college credit.  Just a
> community education class with the purpose of some exposure
> to the world of microcontrollers and how they can be fun to
> learn about.)
>
> Imagine it as taking a "pottery class" might look like for
> those not knowing anything about various temperatures and
> glazes and how they interact or the kinds of clay or any of
> the methods of making pottery; nothing about "throwing" a pot
> and almost nothing about pinching one up.  Students who have
> NO IDEA at all what they are walking into, but feel it "might
> be interesting" and willing to have a go at it.
>
> A task here is to help them find their own motivations and
> enable them to succeed with at least one project idea.  I may
> start out with a survey of the class and skills and interests
> and then provide a spectrum of options to pursue, let them
> choose their poison so to speak, then give them the tools
> they will need, some basic education and support, and then
> 'run the class' in a way that has me alternating between
> short lectures and going around the room and helping them
> move forward when facing a barrier.  The project itself will
> need to come from their interests, though.
>
> Some may do almost the same thing as others, but in their own
> unique way.  Some may attempt something entirely different.
> And some may have taken the class before, maybe 3 or 4 times
> before in fact, and may be "advanced students" who will not
> need so much teaching time themselves but just a little
> support and might even be able to act as help for other
> students who are new, with advice and maybe a little hands-on
> help, too.
>
> An idea I have is to purchase existing kits (which I can get
> for less than US$1, in ones, cheaper still in larger qtys.)
> These:
>
>  http://www.infinitefactors.org/misc/images/sciencetime.png
>
> Many of them include a small DC motor, bright red LED, 40kHz
> emitter and receiver for motion detection, and so on.
> Actually, quite a few interesting parts.  (At less than $1,
> these even include the boxes and shipping!)
>
> One thought I'm considering is to use these as a base concept
> that the less knowledgeable students can select from.  Then
> to go through an idea stage where we talk about possible
> modifications using a microcontroller and I work to "limit"
> their imagination to something they can likely achieve using
> a microcontroller.
>
> The "microcontroller" they choose needs to be something
> cheap, available in DIP form, has an inexpensive development
> environment that isn't hard to use, and will probably have to
> come in BASIC, c, c++, and assembly incarnations.  Maybe
> Forth, too.  (Yes, I'm thinking about it.)  Or some other
> 'turtle graphics' environment.  I don't mind having to solve
> a lot of issues before starting, just to make sure there is a
> spectrum of options here.  But the financial "hill" cannot be
> high.  A $30 processor (Parallax) is NOT in the cards.  $10
> for everything is reasonable.  (This must include USB cable,
> board, a cpu or two, IDE and software tools, and various
> parts they will combine in some simple way.)  $20 is pushing
> it and will probably put too high a barrier on the less
> advanced students.  The more advanced students will probably
> be willing to spend more.
>
> Examples might be to take the "Robotic Beeper," which
> includes a DC motor, fairly-decent-for-the-price gear box,
> wheels (and two o-rings for the drive wheels), battery case
> for 2 AA batteries, and some wire and other stuff, and
> consider adding a small micro with dc motor drive circuit
> (using a cheap, discrete PNP and NPN h-bridge -- the NPNs I
> get for 0.3 cents each and the PNPs are more like 1 cent each
> and the resistors are dirt cheap) and letting them think
> about some interesting thing to do with that.  It might be
> possible to merge this with another kit (the "Electronic
> Motion Sensor") to do something interesting.  Ideas like
> that, anyway.
>
> Out of pocket cost is important.  Might be local high schools
> and after-class time with students drawn from there.  Might
> be as a community outreach class with a community college and
> a wider range.  Might even be held at an old folks' home or
> residence center as a social activity (or physical therapy)
> and a chance to bring in others and expand their horizons
> just a little.
>
> It can have a more artsy focus for some, a more practical for
> others.  In pottery, you will see some students go for cups,
> plates, and bowls -- practical stuff -- while others go for a
> more Picasso or frilly look and zero practicality.  Some will
> have no imagination at all and will need me to suggest some
> ideas to build on.  But I think students should be able to go
> in a variety of directions that _they_ choose for themselves.
>
> I'd also like to figure out the "sizzle" that will sell the
> class.  There will be meat there, but I need to get them in
> the door in the first place.  Might be sold to parents to
> provide after hours with students learning but to the parents
> it lets them not have to worry quite as much about their kids
> while they are themselves busy at work, etc.  Might be sold
> directly to those in the class by helping provide them with
> something they can take home and keep and feel proud about.
> Might be sold to others wanting to go home and try and pass
> along some interest of theirs to family members.  I don't
> know.
>
> I don't have make-or-break expectations about its longer term
> success.  And I don't want to worry about it.  I would simply
> like to consider the idea, flesh it out a bit to see how it
> 'flies,' and maybe take a chance and see what happens.  The
> worst is nothing at all.  And even then, I've tried and
> learned something from the effort.  Anything more than that
> is probably a good success and I will let the students and
> potential students help show me the way.  It may never amount
> to much, but simply doing it helps to develop community and
> that alone is a "good."
>
> If there are some constructive thoughts, I'd love to hear
> them.  If you know of a terribly serious flaw (outside of
> mere ad hominem) that I've completely missed, that's
> constructive too.
>
> Jon

I think you have conflicting requirements, something easy to use is
going to require big knobs, cables, big connectors and hopefully
solderless === big money. A small flat pcb board with nothing but
holes in it (TI 4.30 etc) is too intimidating for your audience.
From: John Speth on 28 Jun 2010 19:08
>> I wanted DIP because I want the _actual_ micro piece used in the
>> final project to cost very little,
>
> I don't think that's a valid line of reasoning. I seriously doubt that
> the part being DIP has a guaranteed positived correlation to its
> cheapness. Not these days, any more.

....

> Let's face it, guys: cheaply socketable DIP is a dead parrot. The only
> reason it's still sitting upright on its perch is that its feet have been
> nailed to it.

I agree. Another way to put it is the demand for DIPs is probably due to:

- Legacy (a diminishing market driver)
- Educational and hobbyist (not much money there)
- Old farts like me who like to work with DIPs in our labs (also
diminishing)

Supply will answer demand but for a price. In low quantities, price is
usually not the highest priority in a purchase decision so you'll pay extra
for the convenience of a DIP.

JJS



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From: Gary Peek on 28 Jun 2010 19:43
Hans-Bernhard Br�ker wrote:
> Let's face it, guys: cheaply socketable DIP is a dead parrot. The only
> reason it's still sitting upright on its perch is that its feet have
> been nailed to it.

I'm not sure what "dead parrot" means, but for a hobby board (or any
board that someone will be "experimenting" with) having the chips in
sockets is an advantage come repair time.

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