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From: linnix on 5 Jul 2010 17:21 On Jul 5, 1:27 pm, -jg <jim.granvi...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 5, 8:24 pm, Jon Kirwan <j...(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote: > > > > > Either way, I plan on implementing a simple language where I > > can take into account criticisms and suggestions and tailor > > it to what I learn in the process. If I am careful and > > crafty, I may be able to make something usable that fits into > > a small space. > > > Whether that would mean 1024 words would be sufficient for a > > very simple system remains to be learned. In any case, this > > still fails to take into account that I want the students > > able to enter programs they write. And that requires space, > > as well. It's possible that it doesn't have to be much and > > it could be in the sram, too. But yes, I may find the limit > > of 1024 words too restrictive. Which is why I hope larger > > parts will be available that will fit that board (if I decide > > to go that way.) > > > I need to put work out the scope and details more before I > > have much more to add. > > "implementing a simple language" sounds like painting yourself into a > corner, if not done very carefully. > > If it was me, I'd try and 'hook into' as much tested existing > resource as I could, before heading off to plow green fields ;) > > Target Source-STEP/Watch debug would be VERY high on that list. > > Next would be some PC Source-step ability too, but here a careful > subset of any PC language is fine. > > -jg We would not implement a language, but some primitives to be driven by another application/program. For example, "pbx7" toggles I/O direction of port B7, "pb7o" toggles the I/O state of port B7. We expect the application/program/user to remember the last direction/ state. Using hyperterminal or another program: pb7xOK p PB7 PB4 PC7 PC6 PC4 PC2 PD5 PD4 PD1 PD0 OUT IN IN IN IN OUT IN IN IN IN OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF ON ON OFF OFF OFF OK pb7oOK p PB7 PB4 PC7 PC6 PC4 PC2 PD5 PD4 PD1 PD0 OUT IN IN IN IN OUT IN IN IN IN ON OFF OFF OFF OFF ON OFF ON OFF OFF OK
From: linnix on 5 Jul 2010 17:54 On Jul 5, 4:48 am, Jon Kirwan <j...(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote: > On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 07:14:29 -0400, Walter Banks > > > > <wal...(a)bytecraft.com> wrote: > >Jon Kirwan wrote: > > >> Assembly code and skill can do a lot with a little. But the industry demands higher level skill set. > > Still, I'm mostly focused upon "action, lights, fire, smoke, > explosions, and sparkly things" part of this to get attention > and interest flowing. Are you students capable of VB and VC? Our instructor expects them to drive the demo board with either one using virtual com port on the PC. I will post the firmware (almost done), VC (almost starting) and VB (left for the students to do).
From: Jon Kirwan on 5 Jul 2010 19:11 On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 13:27:36 -0700 (PDT), -jg <jim.granville(a)gmail.com> wrote: >On Jul 5, 8:24�pm, Jon Kirwan <j...(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote: >> Either way, I plan on implementing a simple language where I >> can take into account criticisms and suggestions and tailor >> it to what I learn in the process. �If I am careful and >> crafty, I may be able to make something usable that fits into >> a small space. � >> >> >> Whether that would mean 1024 words would be sufficient for a >> very simple system remains to be learned. �In any case, this >> still fails to take into account that I want the students >> able to enter programs they write. �And that requires space, >> as well. �It's possible that it doesn't have to be much and >> it could be in the sram, too. �But yes, I may find the limit >> of 1024 words too restrictive. �Which is why I hope larger >> parts will be available that will fit that board (if I decide >> to go that way.) >> >> I need to put work out the scope and details more before I >> have much more to add. > >"implementing a simple language" sounds like painting yourself into a >corner, if not done very carefully. > > If it was me, I'd try and 'hook into' as much tested existing >resource as I could, before heading off to plow green fields ;) > > Target Source-STEP/Watch debug would be VERY high on that list. > > Next would be some PC Source-step ability too, but here a careful >subset of any PC language is fine. Thanks. I don't think I wrote in a way that disagrees with your caution. Part of working out the scope and details is exploring what has already been done and how well that fits into, or detracts from, what else I'd like to accomplish. Worse, I'm not entirely sure what that goal is, either. It's a moving target right now. What I have to do is narrow this down to something I can clearly visualize and communicate the details about and as I find out what is out there, software and hardware and possible target student interests as well, I will nail this down better. It's all a developing gestalt, of sorts. I'm still waiting to discover the self-organizing point of criticality here; a kind of sudden precipitation that will occur when I nail this in mind. When that takes place, I will _know_ what is in and what is out; what works and what doesn't. Everything will clarify. I know some boundaries right now. But the pure sense of inspired vision remains beyond me for the moment. Part of wanting this discussion now is the hope that something, unintended or intended, will resonate and bring forth that precipitation. But one way that has often and reliably pushed me into that insprired realization is setting down and "just doing it." That may be setting down to write code, which may then force me to realize my own limitations better or clarify the goals as I begin to "see" better. That may be just "doing a class" without a plan and see where that takes me, too. I don't like doing that, because it isn't fair to others. But that may be a partial approach to nailing all this down. One thing your comment suggests, and may be different from what I'm seeking, is the very practical issues that you have to deal with day in and day out and the point that I should use as much as possible -- even things that may not be perfect fits -- just for accomplishment's sake itself. But if I don't make this fun; if the result isn't out and out enjoyment by some grandmothers and some kids alike, then I've not gotten it done right. I want this to have the possibility of transforming people, who wouldn't otherwise imagine they'd enjoy taking a screwdriver to a doorknob, and get them to find fun and enlightenment in seeing how a doorknob works for the first time in their lives. To discover or rediscover the long lost explorer in themselves. So unless the tools I find move me clearly in that direction, well... Jon
From: linnix on 5 Jul 2010 19:29 > >> Still, I'm mostly focused upon "action, lights, fire, smoke, > >> explosions, and sparkly things" part of this to get attention > >> and interest flowing. > > >Are you students capable of VB and VC? > > I have no idea who will come in the door. Some might. But > it isn't a pre-requisite... that's for sure. I want people > with zero VB and zero VC experience finding themselves > enjoying the time and wanting to be there. Students who don't want to program can still test out hardware with a simple virtual terminal (hyperterminal). Perhaps someone can wrote a real virtual terminal that can execute basic scripts.
From: Mel on 5 Jul 2010 21:00
linnix wrote: > It says value line chips. I.e. 1K or 2K program space. I don't think > you can do much with GCC in 2K. You can do whatever fits in 2K. I have the AVRFreaks gcc coding for a few PWMs and some calculation and pin IO in under 512 bytes of code for an ATtiny45. It's pretty -- aggressive -- about inlining. I guess SRAM is even tighter than flash. Mel. |