line-move-visual
in [Lisp]
|
From: Uday S Reddy on 15 Jun 2010 14:32 Stefan Monnier wrote: > I did give you the answer: I tried it and found to my surprise that > I liked it, so I suggested it and people said "no way", then they tried > it and some people hated it, while others really liked it. Yes, you did say all of that, and I understood it the first time. But, is Stefan liking something good enough a reason to change the default behaviour? You can set your own defaults in your .emacs to get the behaviour you like and so can all the other people. Does it need to cause an incompatible change to Emacs defaults and potentially break the code/macros of people that have depended on the old behaviour? Does it need endanger people who might unsuspectingly download packages over the net that might depend on the old defaults and have their files corrupted as a result? I hope you will agree that these are more serious questions than merely liking or disliking some behaviour. > So in the end it was a judgment call, and I decided that the added > convenience of being able to deal with very-long-lines without having to > change mode was more important. I.e. I decided that case 3 (in my > earlier long post about it) was less common and less important. Judgment call is ok, and none of us can claim that we are perfect at that. But what concerns me is that after seeing all the discussion here, you still maintain that you "don't regret the decision" because a lot of people like it. So, are you opening Emacs to potentially unsafe changes in an effort to get people to like it? You also haven't acknowledged that Emacs gets used as a platform on which other services are delivered, such as programming environments or mail clients. Your response only touches upon the use of Emacs for personal text editing. Imagine, for instance, that your favourite mail client happened to use `next-line' instead of `forward-line' somewhere in handling the mail headers. It could damage the mail folders irretrievably over a period of time before it ever gets noticed. Is that kind of trouble an appropriate price to pay for the "convenience" you talk about? Cheers, Uday
From: Alan Mackenzie on 15 Jun 2010 15:02 In comp.emacs Uday S Reddy <uDOTsDOTreddy(a)cs.bham.ac.uk> wrote: > Stefan Monnier wrote: >> I did give you the answer: I tried it and found to my surprise that I >> liked it, so I suggested it and people said "no way", then they tried >> it and some people hated it, while others really liked it. > Yes, you did say all of that, and I understood it the first time. But, > is Stefan liking something good enough a reason to change the default > behaviour? Please convince me you're not trolling crudely here. You can take it as written that when somebody like Stefan M. says he "liked" something, the wellbeing of the mass of Emacs users was his prime motivator. > You can set your own defaults in your .emacs to get the behaviour you > like and so can all the other people. This garbage again. When we're talking only about the best settings for defaults, going on about .emacs is stupid. > Does it need to cause an incompatible change to Emacs defaults and > potentially break the code/macros of people that have depended on the > old behaviour? Yes. All changes which aren't new features are incompatible to some extent. > Does it need endanger people who might unsuspectingly download packages > over the net that might depend on the old defaults and have their files > corrupted as a result? Yes. > I hope you will agree that these are more serious questions than merely > liking or disliking some behaviour. Please stop being so damned patronising. >> So in the end it was a judgment call, and I decided that the added >> convenience of being able to deal with very-long-lines without having >> to change mode was more important. I.e. I decided that case 3 (in my >> earlier long post about it) was less common and less important. > Judgment call is ok, and none of us can claim that we are perfect at > that. But what concerns me is that after seeing all the discussion > here, you still maintain that you "don't regret the decision" because > a lot of people like it. So, are you opening Emacs to potentially > unsafe changes in an effort to get people to like it? Step back a bit, take the broad view, and consider that you may just be wrong; that these "potentially" unsafe changes will remain potential, and a tiny number of people will be hurt, not very badly, as Mark Crispin the OP seems to have been. > You also haven't acknowledged that Emacs gets used as a platform on > which other services are delivered, such as programming environments or > mail clients. Your response only touches upon the use of Emacs for > personal text editing. Not at all. Things were weighed up, not disregarded. > Imagine, for instance, that your favourite mail client happened to use > `next-line' instead of `forward-line' somewhere in handling the mail > headers. It could damage the mail folders irretrievably over a period > of time before it ever gets noticed. Is that kind of trouble an > appropriate price to pay for the "convenience" you talk about? Yes. > Cheers, > Uday -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
From: Leo on 15 Jun 2010 15:37 On 2010-06-15 20:02 +0100, Alan Mackenzie wrote: Let's forget about this line-move-visual. It has happened and just turned it off in your site-start.el for good or even patch emacs source locally to get rid of it. It was targeting potential new users. I think what would be interesting is to clean up the mess in elisp. We have cl and eieio that provide half-assed compatibility for common lisp. Why not use the real thing instead by rebasing emacs onto common lisp and gradually phase out elisp? That would bring in some good new users to the community. Leo
From: Uday S Reddy on 15 Jun 2010 17:04 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > >> You can set your own defaults in your .emacs to get the behaviour you >> like and so can all the other people. > > This garbage again. When we're talking only about the best settings for > defaults, going on about .emacs is stupid. Interesting. When I raised the issue of defaults in the developers list, I was advised by Stefan to set my own default. Apparently, he didn't think it was stupid to do so. When I said this morning that you had fallen silent, my meaning was that you did not provide an answer. Calling the question "silly" or "stupid" does not amount to an answer, does it? Why don't you leave it to Stefan to speak for himself? I am sure that Stefan and I are able to have a perfectly normal, professional conversation without your help. Cheers, Uday
From: Thad Floryan on 15 Jun 2010 18:27
On 6/15/2010 1:42 AM, Uday S Reddy wrote: > On 6/15/2010 7:54 AM, Pascal J. Bourguignon wrote: > >> >> Well, C-f C-n is all you need. I mean, keep C-f pressed until the >> cursor reaches the column you want, you don't even need to count >> 76. And keep C-n pressed until the cursor reaches the line you want. > > Except that pressing control-key for that long with your pinky is a > health risk! > [...] That's why remapping the [Caps Lock] to be a [Ctrl] is very useful. The best solution for Windows systems is: <http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb897578.aspx> <http://download.sysinternals.com/Files/Ctrl2Cap.zip> another is a UNIX/Linux keyboard: <http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/linux101.html> |