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From: Frank Bemelman on 6 Sep 2006 16:41 "Joerg" <notthisjoergsch(a)removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht news:sxFLg.16065$1f6.6792(a)newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > Hello Frank, > >> >>>A lot of stuff actually does not get better but worse. PC software is >>>just one example. Another classic: I have fixed numerous devices that I >>>needed but that were unreliable because of a dirty reset. The "design >>>engineers" >> >> >> I never had to do that. The gadgets I buy just work. I must be shopping >> in >> other places than you. >> > > Nope, some name brand stuff. Heck, even one of the HP analyzers here in > the lab had a reset issue and that thing used to retail over $30k. Other > than that (and shabby ROM sockets) a very useful piece of equipment and of > Mercedes-Benz like quality. And obviously designed by the best engineers you could imagine. Perhaps you didn't understand their reset circuit, and calling it pathetic is not the correct way to label it. > If you think it's not a valid choice these days ask yourself one question: > Which other uC is truly second-sourced? Who cares? You can stick to 8051 that might not be the best choice for a given task, or choose one that fits and redesign it if you can't get them anymore. Half the world is able to do that without too much complaining. In practice, you have more problems with the surrounding circuits (Maxim for instance) rather than the controller itself. I don't worry for a second about the controller/uP used. Pick one that fits and that is not too expensive or too much overkill etc. Redesign the damn thing for a new controller if need be. Helps keeping the job too ;) > Want more? Maybe you should open things like you programmable thermostat > and take a look. As I mentioned before many 8051 apps are disguised as > ASICs that contain lots of custom funtions (SoC) plus an 8051 core. Ah, how about second sourcing that kind of stuff. What they did is designing their own controller, around a conveniently available core. Which just happens to be a 8051. Again, they didn't worry about second sources. -- Thanks, Frank. (remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
From: Hans-Bernhard Broeker on 6 Sep 2006 16:53 Joerg <notthisjoergsch(a)removethispacbell.net> wrote: > BTW, my old carb-equipped Citroen from the college days got 50mpg with > regular unleaded. Now try that with a "modern" car. Oh, and it needs to > be able to haul an upright fridge because my Citroen could and did that. It'd probably not be able to repeat that trick with what USA-ians think you mean when you say "upright fridge", though --- their device going by that name is about twice as large as yours, in at least one, sometimes two directions. In European integrated kitchens, there's often a cupboard below the fridge, and another, smaller one, above. In US-American style both those cupboards are *in* the fridge. -- Hans-Bernhard Broeker (broeker(a)physik.rwth-aachen.de) Even if all the snow were burnt, ashes would remain.
From: Joerg on 6 Sep 2006 17:01 Hello Hans-Bernhard, > >>BTW, my old carb-equipped Citroen from the college days got 50mpg with >>regular unleaded. Now try that with a "modern" car. Oh, and it needs to >>be able to haul an upright fridge because my Citroen could and did that. > > It'd probably not be able to repeat that trick with what USA-ians > think you mean when you say "upright fridge", though --- their device > going by that name is about twice as large as yours, in at least one, > sometimes two directions. In European integrated kitchens, there's > often a cupboard below the fridge, and another, smaller one, above. > In US-American style both those cupboards are *in* the fridge. > Well, I am in the US and we have one of those monsters in the kitchen. Freezer, cold water, ice crusher, the whole nine yards. But this happened in Europe about 15 years ago. The fridge was indeed smaller than the US versions but not by much. It had a little built-in freezer above the fridge. Someone was bragging about his Volkswagen bus and that these student cars like my teeny Citroen were just that. Teeny. Then came the day of reckoning when he had to move. That fridge would absolutely not make it into his bus. No way. So I rolled back the cloth "roof" of the Citroen, took out four Philips screws which made the whole roof-trunk assembly come off and we slid the fridge in. Fired up the 16 horses and off we went. Actually I had to crank the 16 horses because 6V batteries had become rare and too expensive for a student ;-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Joerg on 6 Sep 2006 17:27 Hello Frank, >> >>>>A lot of stuff actually does not get better but worse. PC software is >>>>just one example. Another classic: I have fixed numerous devices that I >>>>needed but that were unreliable because of a dirty reset. The "design >>>>engineers" >>> >>>I never had to do that. The gadgets I buy just work. I must be shopping >>>in >>>other places than you. >> >>Nope, some name brand stuff. Heck, even one of the HP analyzers here in >>the lab had a reset issue and that thing used to retail over $30k. Other >>than that (and shabby ROM sockets) a very useful piece of equipment and of >>Mercedes-Benz like quality. > > And obviously designed by the best engineers you could imagine. Perhaps > you didn't understand their reset circuit, and calling it pathetic is > not the correct way to label it. > There isn't much to understand about an RC hanging on VCC and feeding a bunch of logic inputs. Gives me the goose pimples. One wee power glitch on the mains voltage and the thing goes lalaland. Plus they chose to use an electrolytic which dried up and leaked. Great. It looked like one of those design deals outsourced to Yokogawa. The RF parts were absolutely impressive, good old cast-iron HP stuff. The digital section? Ahem. > >>If you think it's not a valid choice these days ask yourself one question: >>Which other uC is truly second-sourced? > > Who cares? You can stick to 8051 that might not be the best > choice for a given task, or choose one that fits and redesign > it if you can't get them anymore. Half the world is able to > do that without too much complaining. In practice, you have more > problems with the surrounding circuits (Maxim for instance) > rather than the controller itself. I don't worry for a > second about the controller/uP used. Pick one that fits and > that is not too expensive or too much overkill etc. Redesign > the damn thing for a new controller if need be. Helps keeping > the job too ;) > You mean, who cares about 2nd source? Have you designed stuff for decade long mass production? Seen a CEO become red in the face because a part allocation caused a line stop and he was about to be grilled in the board meeting? > >>Want more? Maybe you should open things like you programmable thermostat >>and take a look. As I mentioned before many 8051 apps are disguised as >>ASICs that contain lots of custom funtions (SoC) plus an 8051 core. > > Ah, how about second sourcing that kind of stuff. What they did is > designing their own controller, around a conveniently available core. > Which just happens to be a 8051. Again, they didn't worry about > second sources. > 2nd sourcing an ASIC is rather easy if you do not push foundry limits. I did not bring this up for 2nd sourcing reasons since you can 2nd source with any licensed core. I brought this up to mention that there are a whole lot of other 8051 apps that are unseen. If this old uC core fits the bill why use another and pay higher license fees? In the same way that you (probably...) do not use a gold-plated shovel to till you vegetable patch. Although I do know a few folks around here who use a $2000 tractor to mow a 300sqft lawn. Maybe because it is fun and looks so manly. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Jim Granville on 6 Sep 2006 18:00
Joerg wrote: > > Number one was in 1994 and is still in production. So are the others > that followed. No external RAM/ROM necessary. > > The 8051 family was also one of the first to offer true low noise > performance because you could ask it to take a nap via the PCON command. > This meant true RF silence. > > If you think it's not a valid choice these days ask yourself one > question: Which other uC is truly second-sourced? For those who claim second source is not important, this news item, ( somewhat at the opposite end of the market, from the 8051 ! :), mentions a 3MBYTE monster PowerPC core from Freescale and states http://www10.edacafe.com/nbc/articles/view_article.php?section=ICNews&articleid=301487 "In February 2006, ST Microelectronics and Freescale announced a collaboration agreement that outlines joint design of 32-bit automotive MCUs based on Power Architecture technology, including future 90-nm products with dual-source options available for these devices." Note also the comments about 5V operation..... Anyone seen a price on this device ? -jg |