8 bit microcontroller market
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From: Joerg on 6 Sep 2006 15:43 Hello Frank, > >>A lot of stuff actually does not get better but worse. PC software is just >>one example. Another classic: I have fixed numerous devices that I needed >>but that were unreliable because of a dirty reset. The "design engineers" > > > I never had to do that. The gadgets I buy just work. I must be shopping in > other places than you. > Nope, some name brand stuff. Heck, even one of the HP analyzers here in the lab had a reset issue and that thing used to retail over $30k. Other than that (and shabby ROM sockets) a very useful piece of equipment and of Mercedes-Benz like quality. > >>>Buy and open a dozen of random industrial black boxes and show >>>me where the 8051 is. You'll be *very* lucky if you find one >>>or two. >>> >>I don't have to buy anything but just stroll down the stairs here to show >>you the first one. There is a pellet heater which needs to be serviced >>once a season. I often do that myself. Guess what's timing all the motors >>in there? Ye olde 8051. > > And is that 'Ye olde' pellet heater too? It must be ;) > Breckwell P23i, AFAIK you can still buy these. Plus most other brands that have a similar controller. > >>Then there are a few medical devices with 8051 and the way it's going it >>seems their production life will exceed that of many car models. Designed >>by yours truly :-) > > How long ago did you design it? 20 years ago there was little > other choice than 8051. It was already sort of a microcontroller, > even though it needs external ram/rom. Ten years ago - still > a valid choice, but the arena is getting smaller and smaller > for the 8051. I agree it can still be a very valid choice today, > for typically very less demanding tasks. Like a pellet heater. > Damn if I know what a pellet heater is. > Number one was in 1994 and is still in production. So are the others that followed. No external RAM/ROM necessary. The 8051 family was also one of the first to offer true low noise performance because you could ask it to take a nap via the PCON command. This meant true RF silence. If you think it's not a valid choice these days ask yourself one question: Which other uC is truly second-sourced? > >>Jim mentioned that the 80C51 runs around a billion/year. Where do you >>think these are going? Is someone eating them? > > A billion. With such large numbers and nothing to compare it against, > I don't know if I should be impressed or not. Maybe a booming sales > in pellet heaters is the cause of all this. > Numbers can very well be compared. That's what companies like iSupply do for a living. And where we designers pay close attention because it will hint pricing trends and point out obsolescence risks. Want more? Maybe you should open things like you programmable thermostat and take a look. As I mentioned before many 8051 apps are disguised as ASICs that contain lots of custom funtions (SoC) plus an 8051 core. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Joerg on 6 Sep 2006 15:52 Hello Yuriy, >>>>>> However, there is one thing that I regularly had to consider as a >>>>>> manager or when designing uC into otherwise analog circuitry for my >>>>>> clients: Availability of programmers. This is where (so far) the 8051 >>>>>> has beaten all others hands down. >>> >>> What's the difference? CPU core type does not matter as soon as it is >>> fast enough to handle the task. Programmer who can handle only 8051 >>> core shall be fired for the incompetence. >> >> That's not how managers in the industry think here in California and >> those are the folks who make most decisions. > > Poor managers. Micromanagement is a very, very counterproductive option. > Has nothing to do with micro management. > BTW, how many managers were polled to get these results? > No need to for me. I live here :-) >> It's simple: You have a task at hand and you need someone who can >> instantly jump on it. Zero learning curve. He or she should preferably >> be local. Also, it should be an architecture where you can instantly >> find a local replacement should that consultant not pan out for some >> reason. I found that the 8051 architecture is very adequate for most >> jobs. You don't need a fancy 16-bitter for a simple control function. > > Well, as long as the goal is to build a Christmas light sequencer, I > tend to agree. But even in this case CPU type is not important, unless > the goal is to waste resources by using assembly language... > Our apps are a lot more demanding. Realtime stuff in assembler, other designs in C. >>> I feel pity for these people. Not much can be built out of only >>> resistors, capacitors ans 2n3904s... >> >> A whole lot more than you think. I do this all the time and we have >> food on the table :-) > > A lot of people have better food without ever heard such meaningless > words as 2n3904, etc. :-P > So, you think a 2N3904 is meaningless? Interesting. Open some gadgets and look inside. My designs that contain a lot of such discretes generate comfortable profit margins for my clients. And here I don't mean toys only. Furnace controllers, HVAC controllers, etc. > There is no multiple source processors now. Even 8051 derivatives > usually have some distinctive features. > >> Thing is, the number of engineers who are able to design something >> around a bunch of discretes or other jelly-bean parts is rapidly >> declining. To the point where many fresh graduates are not even able >> to understand my designs anymore. > > Ironically, there are at least two possible reason for that... > Which would be? >> Beauty is of no importance in an industrial design. Important are only >> these: >> >> a. Fulfills specs, but no more. >> b. Cost >> c. Cost >> d. Cost > > Just don't forget, that what you get is what you pay for. > Exactly. Why should my clients pay for a fancy DSP and sweat throw those dreaded allocation phases when it can be done for much less? -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Joerg on 6 Sep 2006 16:19 Hello Yuriy, >> Except for field failures or the occasional fatalities. Look at >> electronics in automotive. I'd never buy a car with dozens of >> controllers. > > Still driving old carb. engine around? 8-[] > Mits Montero four-cylinder, stick shift. Simple, never breaks down, good enough for me :-) BTW, my old carb-equipped Citroen from the college days got 50mpg with regular unleaded. Now try that with a "modern" car. Oh, and it needs to be able to haul an upright fridge because my Citroen could and did that. >> A lot of stuff actually does not get better but worse. PC software is >> just one example. > > Very good example. I vote for today's software over any 10-years old. > And definitely over any 25-years old software... > Ok, I am of opposite opinion here. Simply based on speed and number of crashes. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Joerg on 6 Sep 2006 16:29 Hello Robert, >>How long ago did you design it? 20 years ago there was little >>other choice than 8051. It was already sort of a microcontroller, >>even though it needs external ram/rom. Ten years ago - still >>a valid choice, but the arena is getting smaller and smaller >>for the 8051. I agree it can still be a very valid choice today, >>for typically very less demanding tasks. Like a pellet heater. >>Damn if I know what a pellet heater is. > > A rabbit dropping sterilizer? ;) > Nope :-))) Frank, they are just becoming popular in Europe. The US had them since a couple decades or so. Saw dust from wood processing and furniture plants is compressed into pellets about 5mm in diameter and 10-25mm long. These come in bulk or 40-pound bags. Then they are transported from a hopper into the burn chamber via an auger. An exhaust fan creates suction and pipes out the fumes (actually there aren't any visible ones). A convection blower circulates the air that is to be heated through the heat exchanger tubes. Then lots of thermal and pressure sense interlocks. That's it, in a nut shell. The really nice thing: Supply and demand remain fairly constant and thus the price of the fuel is quite predictable. Also, they are CO2 neutral since the saw dust would produce the same CO2 whether it rots away in a landfill or whether it is burned. Some stoves can even burn corn or fruit pits. The downside: These things are fickle IMHO. About once a year something goes wrong, it does a safety shutdown and you really need to understand how it and its micro controller work. Else it's an expensive proposition if you'd have to call out a tech every time. I like our wood stove better because other than cutting new fire brick every few years it's nearly maintenance free. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Joerg on 6 Sep 2006 16:34
Hello Steve, >> >>>>Another thought is about what you want to do with it and whether the mfg >>>>supplies enough info for the task at hand. For example, twice I had >>>>considered the MSP430 because it would have been a glove fit but I was >>>>unable to crank details about the DCO and port drivers/receivers out of >>>>TI. >>> >>>or even basic A/D info >>> >>Amen! >> >>That info, or rather the lack of it, is probably going to sink TI's next >>potential design-win. There just isn't enough data for the F2013's 16bit >>converter. > > so how do think other engineers design MSP430 products without this > info? Same problem with the AVR datasheets. Design by experimentation > is a poor design method, in my book... > Some of them actually do. They check out the performance themselves. I mostly work in med electronics where we just cannot do that. So, no spec means no design-in. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |