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From: John F on 13 Sep 2006 11:50 Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: >> Yuriy K. wrote: > John F wrote: > >>> Everything is already in asm. O-ops. Nothing to port and single >>> unused byte in code memory. > > You take the code very personal, like the piece of art. The problem > is > nobody is going to appreciate this as the art for the sake of art :) That's what Yuriy thinks. Yes. IMHO If it is working and sufficiently fast, no problem. >> This is the part where you try to save half a cent by >> working for a weak or two. That's where you are not able to switch >> the ?C just for convenience. > > So, the break even point (just to recoup the direct labor, not > considering the hidden costs of the future problems and the learning > in the past) will be somewhere at 1 million units produced. Yes. That's why I wrote multi-million project. But not only there. A slightly lower price can get you a lot of customers. (There are these special price levels where a product is considered cheap/good/expensive... Don't remember the name) > Will you please be so kind to give an example of such project? You should know some :-) There are lot's of them. Look around in your flat/house/@work. Almost every internationally marketed consumer product is a (multi-)million project. (Especially the use-for-a-year-then-throw-away market :-) Many parts (and firmwares) are not just used in a single model but rather in up to 10 different models each up to 100 000 peaces worldwide. So savings multiply. Automotives are another example of large markets with hard monetary constraints. To use a recent example: BluRay: Only in germany (only this christmas) 5000 early adopters are expected. Worldwide that would be more than 200000 maybe. So we are talking about BIG markets here Even if it's not a multi million market, it's an evolving market where an even slightly lower price can push you to a leading edge of sales. Maybe it's not the ?C that's cheaper but some stuff that's done in 10ct analog rather than buying a much more expensive ?C capable of performing the same stunt... If you already have the code for the old ?C it can save tons of money to add a feature in asm rather than wasting ressources by using C. -- Johannes You can have it: Quick, Accurate, Inexpensive. Pick two.
From: Joerg on 13 Sep 2006 12:10 Hello Yuriy, >>>>>> OrCad SDT-III 3.22 >>>>> >>>>> Inferior to almost any current PCB design package. Very limited >>>>> capability. >>>> >>>> In which ways is it inferior and limited? >>> >>> In productivity. I.e. how long will it take you to get from idea to >>> the routed PCB. I used it a little about 15 years ago. It was quite >>> good at that time, but PCAD 4.5 happened to have more features and >>> complete support from schematic to PCB and backward. AFAIR, SDT is >>> just a schematic capture. One still had to use a separate PCB routing >>> software. > >> It is but you could also get a layout package from them. > > It was bad. BTW, does SDT have more than one undo level? > I don't remember since I generally do not need an undo command ;-) >> And we still have the same incompatibilities where the only way to get >> the data into the layout package is a netlist. > > Try to use the same package for both schematic capture and PCB routing. > You will see a huge improvement in compatibility. > Sure. My new CAD (Cadsoft Eagle) does that. However, let's face it, most engineers do not do layouts. I lay out the hardcore stuff like sensitive RF sections and then hand that to the layouter as an example how I'd like it done. But I have a good layouter who understands RF so even that is usually not needed. However, like in most cases he uses another CAD system (PADS). It is usually not cost efficient for engineers to do their own layout. Just as chip designers generally don't do that but contract it out. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Joerg on 13 Sep 2006 12:15 Hello Vladimir, > > You take the code very personal, like the piece of art. The problem is > nobody is going to appreciate this as the art for the sake of art :) > >> This is the part where you try to save half a cent by working for a >> weak or two. That's where you are not able to switch the ?C just for >> convenience. > Hasn't been that extreme for me but I did spend several hours to save a dime. That amortized for the client in under a year. In the decade that followed they could keep pocketing those dimes. > > So, the break even point (just to recoup the direct labor, not > considering the hidden costs of the future problems and the learning in > the past) will be somewhere at 1 million units produced. > > Will you please be so kind to give an example of such project? > Look around in the toy section at Walmart or the shelves at Long's Drugs. Think "disposable" or "semi-disposable". Or Home Depot. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Vladimir Vassilevsky on 13 Sep 2006 12:33 Joerg wrote: >> So, the break even point (just to recoup the direct labor, not >> considering the hidden costs of the future problems and the learning >> in the past) will be somewhere at 1 million units produced. >> >> Will you please be so kind to give an example of such project? >> > > Look around in the toy section at Walmart or the shelves at Long's > Drugs. Think "disposable" or "semi-disposable". So, you are talking about using the asm for the really primitive applications, like toys, tools, timers, dimmers, etc. The user interface of a microwave oven is already too complicated to be developed in asm... Vladimir Vassilevsky DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant http://www.abvolt.com
From: Joerg on 13 Sep 2006 13:33
Hello Vladimir, > >>> So, the break even point (just to recoup the direct labor, not >>> considering the hidden costs of the future problems and the learning >>> in the past) will be somewhere at 1 million units produced. >>> >>> Will you please be so kind to give an example of such project? >>> >> Look around in the toy section at Walmart or the shelves at Long's >> Drugs. Think "disposable" or "semi-disposable". > > So, you are talking about using the asm for the really primitive > applications, like toys, tools, timers, dimmers, etc. > These are not the lone asm categories but the categories where saving 1/2c actually can make sense. Also, primitive or not, one can make a lot of money with this stuff. > The user interface of a microwave oven is already too complicated to be > developed in asm... > It's slow. There probably isn't a need for asm here. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |