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From: Yuriy K. on 13 Sep 2006 20:13 Jonathan Kirwan wrote: >> When I was young and stupid, I developed everything entirely in the asm. > > I can't agree that developing entirely in asm is always strictly a > matter of being stupid or young or both, if that is your implication. In most cases it is. Nobody proved otherwise yet. >> Once I developed the application of 500k lines of asm. Finally that got >> me to realize that this is not the right way to do things. > > It probably wasn't the right way for that application. Usually it is a wrong way for an application. >>> actually, and including floating point routines, transcendentals, etc) >> No problem. I did all of that till I finally realized that there is no >> reason in reinventing the wheel. > > A simplistic statement with grand, sweeping implications. But nature > is impassive and unswayed by the force of your own realizations. Rewriting standard libraries is not very productive work even if it is well-paid. >> In a few cases, 100%. >> Example? > I could give several and justify them, but frankly you haven't made me > interested in pursuing it with you. :) -- WBR, Yuriy. "Resistance is futile"
From: Vladimir Vassilevsky on 13 Sep 2006 20:12 Joerg wrote: >> It could be fun. However there is no money for the engineer in the >> development of the primitive stuff. It is the job for the technicians. >> The reality is the bigger is the project and the higher is the level >> of abstraction, the more money is paid. Just compare the salaries. >> There were numerous salary surveys from the EDN and like. > Maybe you have never worked on consumer gear. Or maybe you aren't living > in the US. I live in US and I developed several consumer products. The typical cost was constrained in the range $50...$100 for the complete unit. There is absolutely nothing one can gain there by the use of the assembler. > The folks who design thermostats, toys, entry systems or > other consumer gear earn top Dollar. No. The folks who do the programming in the MS Powerpoint earn the top dollar. The next layer does the programming in the MS Project and they earn little less :-) Then there is the layer of the MS Excel, and so on. When it comes down to the assembler and PCB layout, this is much closer to the bottom then to the top. VLV
From: Joerg on 13 Sep 2006 20:22 Hello Yuriy, >>> BTW, does SDT have more than one undo level? >> >> I don't remember since I generally do not need an undo command ;-) > > Hm-m-m. Are pencil and mylar tape good enough? > I do most initial designs with pencil and paper ;-) >>>> And we still have the same incompatibilities where the only way to >>>> get the data into the layout package is a netlist. >>> >>> Try to use the same package for both schematic capture and PCB >>> routing. You will see a huge improvement in compatibility. > > >> Sure. My new CAD (Cadsoft Eagle) does that. > > > Obviously, any modern package does that. > > BTW, what is the reason to use bad new software instead of good old SDT? :0 > Mainly one: I got tired of writing my own printer driver whenever a printer wore out. OrCad was very friendly (at least before they were bought) and sent me the tools to do that. But that gets old. I still miss it and sometimes I am even tempted to go back. SDT does have some serious advantages versus Eagle: Hierarchical sheet structure and extra part fields. Oh well, can't have everything. Cadsoft Eagle is pretty good SW, not "bad new software". It is reasonably priced and very powerful. Also, it allows me to do sample layouts of critical sections, to give to my layouter so he knows exactly how I'd like it done. With OrCad I would have had to either buy a very expensive layout package or do a clumsy netlist transfer into Autotrax or another lower cost tool. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Joerg on 13 Sep 2006 20:42 Hello Vladimir, > >>> It could be fun. However there is no money for the engineer in the >>> development of the primitive stuff. It is the job for the technicians. >>> The reality is the bigger is the project and the higher is the level >>> of abstraction, the more money is paid. Just compare the salaries. > > There were numerous salary surveys from the EDN and like. > I would need a link to one in order to really believe that. I read EDN often but I have never seen a survey that proves a difference in salary between designers of low-cost gear and high-end gear. > >> Maybe you have never worked on consumer gear. Or maybe you aren't >> living in the US. > > > I live in US and I developed several consumer products. The typical cost > was constrained in the range $50...$100 for the complete unit. There is > absolutely nothing one can gain there by the use of the assembler. > $50-$100 is high-end stuff. If that is not the cost to the consumer but the production cost then it is very high-end stuff :-) > >> The folks who design thermostats, toys, entry systems or other >> consumer gear earn top Dollar. > > > No. The folks who do the programming in the MS Powerpoint earn the top > dollar. The next layer does the programming in the MS Project and they > earn little less :-) Then there is the layer of the MS Excel, and so on. > When it comes down to the assembler and PCB layout, this is much closer > to the bottom then to the top. > Well, yes, managers earn more. But they also take a lot of heat. I was the GM of a division for quite a while. That is no cake walk. BTW, our SW folks earned pretty much the same as all the other engineers. There was no difference between the ones who did more assembler and the ones who did C all the time. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Kelly Hall on 13 Sep 2006 20:55
Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote: > The user interface of a microwave oven is already too complicated to be > developed in asm... The best UI I've used on a microwave was a spring-loaded dial with regular markings up to 20 minutes at full CCW. Just turn the dial past zero with the door shut and the magnetron nukes the food. No assembly, C, state machines, or RTOS required. Maybe my microwaving needs are too primitive? Kelly |