8 bit microcontroller market
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From: Joerg on 13 Sep 2006 13:44 Hello John, >>So, the break even point (just to recoup the direct labor, not >>considering the hidden costs of the future problems and the learning >>in the past) will be somewhere at 1 million units produced. > > Yes. That's why I wrote multi-million project. > But not only there. A slightly lower price can get you a lot of > customers. (There are these special price levels where a product is > considered cheap/good/expensive... Don't remember the name) > >>Will you please be so kind to give an example of such project? > > You should know some :-) > > There are lot's of them. Look around in your flat/house/@work. Almost > every internationally marketed consumer product is a (multi-)million > project. (Especially the use-for-a-year-then-throw-away market :-) > Or take a screw driver and open up the programmable thermostat. Chances are there is a wee 4-bitter working in it. I happened to know a guy who designs these and he said there'd have to be a major apocalyptic event before his boss would agree to migrate up to 8 bits. > Many parts (and firmwares) are not just used in a single model but > rather in up to 10 different models each up to 100 000 peaces > worldwide. So savings multiply. > > Automotives are another example of large markets with hard monetary > constraints. > > To use a recent example: BluRay: Only in germany (only this christmas) > 5000 early adopters are expected. Worldwide that would be more than > 200000 maybe. So we are talking about BIG markets here > Don't count me in as an early adopter. I am usually a late adopter or a non-adopter ;-) > Even if it's not a multi million market, it's an evolving market where > an even slightly lower price can push you to a leading edge of sales. > > Maybe it's not the ?C that's cheaper but some stuff that's done in > 10ct analog rather than buying a much more expensive ?C capable of > performing the same stunt... That needs to sink in with some uC manufacturers. Often their reps could not understand that I'd turn down an 80c uC. It was because the analog solution cost only 50c. It might contain 30 parts and look ugly to some. But it's still only 50c. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: John F on 13 Sep 2006 13:54 Joerg wrote: > Hello John, Hello Joerg! >>> So, the break even point (just to recoup the direct labor, not >>> considering the hidden costs of the future problems and the >>> learning >>> in the past) will be somewhere at 1 million units produced. >> >> Yes. That's why I wrote multi-million project. >> But not only there. A slightly lower price can get you a lot of >> customers. (There are these special price levels where a product is >> considered cheap/good/expensive... Don't remember the name) >> >>> Will you please be so kind to give an example of such project? >> >> You should know some :-) >> >> There are lot's of them. Look around in your flat/house/@work. >> Almost >> every internationally marketed consumer product is a >> (multi-)million >> project. (Especially the use-for-a-year-then-throw-away market :-) >> > > Or take a screw driver and open up the programmable thermostat. I have some of these re-fitters... http://www.klimalex.de/html/heizungsthermostat.html Nice things. I'll have a look inside, asap :-) They work for more than a year with a single AA battery. > Chances are there is a wee 4-bitter working in it. I happened to > know > a guy who designs these and he said there'd have to be a major > apocalyptic event before his boss would agree to migrate up to 8 > bits. I can believe that. Why change it, if its working, selling and probably still market leader :-) >> Many parts (and firmwares) are not just used in a single model but >> rather in up to 10 different models each up to 100 000 peaces >> worldwide. So savings multiply. >> >> Automotives are another example of large markets with hard monetary >> constraints. >> >> To use a recent example: BluRay: Only in germany (only this >> christmas) 5000 early adopters are expected. Worldwide that would >> be >> more than 200000 maybe. So we are talking about BIG markets here >> > > Don't count me in as an early adopter. I am usually a late adopter > or > a non-adopter ;-) So do I. I ve never bought the first generation of anything :-) It saves a lot of bugs/expense (because things are usually packed into ASICs a few years later and happen to get cheaper)... >> Even if it's not a multi million market, it's an evolving market >> where an even slightly lower price can push you to a leading edge >> of >> sales. Maybe it's not the ?C that's cheaper but some stuff that's >> done in >> 10ct analog rather than buying a much more expensive ?C capable of >> performing the same stunt... > > > That needs to sink in with some uC manufacturers. Often their reps > could not understand that I'd turn down an 80c uC. It was because > the > analog solution cost only 50c. It might contain 30 parts and look > ugly to some. But it's still only 50c. Yep. And: The real world is still analog. Someone should tell them :-) -- Johannes You can have it: Quick, Accurate, Inexpensive. Pick two.
From: Jonathan Kirwan on 13 Sep 2006 14:06 On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:33:56 GMT, Vladimir Vassilevsky <antispam_bogus(a)hotmail.com> wrote: ><snip> >The user interface of a microwave oven is already too complicated to be >developed in asm... I honestly still don't understand where you are taking this. But I suspect that this example is a bit of a strawman. I think the user interface of a microwave oven is a good place for a mostly using a language other than asm, though I suppose there might be a small bit of asm in many of them. However, that isn't how you say things. You seem to suggest, perhaps unintentionally, that such things are also "too complicated" for asm. On that score, this sounds to me like something spoken by someone who probably hasn't developed significant applications entirely in asm. I've done applications spanning many, many hundreds of printed pages of asm (filling some 6 thick volumes, actually, and including floating point routines, transcendentals, etc) providing timesharing services and interpreters for dozens of very active users entirely in asm and I'm quite sure that the user interface of a microwave oven would be rather trivial by comparison. So it's not out of the bounds, nor even particularly difficult. (In that case, I had little choice at the time, though, due to processing rate capabilities of 1960's technology and available options regarding tools. Today, I'd use a high level language for a very significant part of it.) Asm almost always has some place within the embedded applications I work on. Perhaps 2-5%, or so, in many cases. In a few cases, 100%. It depends on circumstances. But reducing asm to zero almost doesn't happen, except in rather trivial test cases. And I'm not just talking about applications I personally write, but those of people I work with in similar product areas. It really isn't unusual. Of course, I'm sure that there are times and places where assembly is simply not used by the application developers -- but those places will be where priorities and trade-offs are be markedly different from mine. No criticism should be lobbed, either way. We know what we are doing, just as I'm sure you do. My solutions wouldn't make sense to some other application areas and their solutions wouldn't make sense to mine. My only suggestion might simply be that being facile with assembly is an enabling skill. You can use it, or not, as the application requires. But if you don't have much facility or familiarity with it, enough that you are comfortable applying it, then you won't. Even when the situation might be improved or completed more quickly with it. (It would be manifestly wrong to suggest these situations do not ever occur.) Jon
From: Joerg on 13 Sep 2006 14:30 Hello John, > > I have some of these re-fitters... > http://www.klimalex.de/html/heizungsthermostat.html > Fancy! While in Germany I had "analog" ones, actually 100% mechanical and capillary fluid driven. Don't be disappointed to see no uC at all in there. Probably an ASIC. > Nice things. I'll have a look inside, asap :-) They work for more than > a year with a single AA battery. > > >>Chances are there is a wee 4-bitter working in it. I happened to >>know >>a guy who designs these and he said there'd have to be a major >>apocalyptic event before his boss would agree to migrate up to 8 >>bits. > > I can believe that. Why change it, if its working, selling and > probably still market leader :-) > Exactamente. If a 4-bitter is good enough there is no reason to change. >>> ... Maybe it's not the ?C that's cheaper but some stuff that's >>>done in >>>10ct analog rather than buying a much more expensive ?C capable of >>>performing the same stunt... >> >>That needs to sink in with some uC manufacturers. Often their reps >>could not understand that I'd turn down an 80c uC. It was because >>the >>analog solution cost only 50c. It might contain 30 parts and look >>ugly to some. But it's still only 50c. > > Yep. And: The real world is still analog. Someone should tell them :-) > A SW engineer said that the world is digital because you'll always reach the smallest unit change eventually. Max Planck must have spoiled the broth for us analog guys :-( -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Vladimir Vassilevsky on 13 Sep 2006 15:28
Joerg wrote: >> So, you are talking about using the asm for the really primitive >> applications, like toys, tools, timers, dimmers, etc. >> > > These are not the lone asm categories but the categories where saving > 1/2c actually can make sense. Also, primitive or not, one can make a lot > of money with this stuff. You are missing the main point. Primitive applications are developed by the primitive people who are paid the primitive money for their primitive job. The company can make a lot of money from it however it is a completely different story. VLV |