A constant speed of light in all reference frames? Surely you can't be serious.
in [Relativity]
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From: mpc755 on 20 Feb 2010 21:59 On Feb 20, 8:24 pm, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:ec15dd9a-7b73-405d-8872-e3e885013206(a)t21g2000vbo.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 20, 4:23 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Feb 20, 12:11 am, "Peter Webb" > > > > First you said that light always travels at c with respect to the > > > observer. > > > I never said the light travels at 'c' with respect to an observer > > moving with respect to the aether. Find where I said that. > > What I have said is for an observer moving with respect to the aether > they will determine the speed of light to be 'c'. > > > > Then you said that light always travels at c with respect to the ether. > > > > First you said that you agreed with the equations of SR. > > > Then you said the equation for time dilation in SR is wrong. > > > > Again: > > > > Q1. You believe light always travels at c with respect to: > > > a) The observer, or > > > b) The ether > > > c) neither of the above > > b) Light propagates at 'c' with respect to the aether. Observers > moving with respect to the aether will determine the light to > propagate at 'c', even though the light waves are physically > propagating at 'c' with respect to the aether the Observers are moving > with respect to. In my response you refuse to read the Observers on > the train are moving with respect to the aether. Even though the > Observers on the train are moving with respect to the aether, they > still determine the speed of light to be 'c'. > > __________________________________________ > Just to clarify, according to you, all observers in all intertial frames > will measure light as travelling at c? Exactly as predicted by SR? > > > > Q2. You believe the equations of SR are: > > > a) Correct > > > b) Correct except for the time dilation one > > > c) Neither of the above. > > d) Equations are correct. > > _______________________________________________ > You believe all the equations of SR are correct. None of them mention the > ether. Therefore your ether cannot be detected by any physical experiement. > That is correct, right? If it is wrong, what equations does ether speed > appear in, and how would you detect its existence? > > Clocks do in fact 'tick' slower the faster > the clock is moving with respect to the aether. The difference is, in > AD, the clock 'ticks' slower because of the increase in the aether > pressure on the clock associated with the clocks motion with respect > to the aether. > > Atomic clocks 'tick' based on the aether pressure in which it exists. > An objects momentum determines the aether pressure on and through the > object. The greater the momentum the greater the associated aether > pressure. Whatever energy the object requires to displace the aether > the aether returns to the object as it 'displaces back'. The pressure > associated with the aether displaced by massive objects is gravity. > > The speed of a GPS satellite with respect to the aether causes it to > displace more aether and for that aether to exert more pressure on the > clock in the GPS satellite than the aether pressure associated with a > clock at rest with respect to the Earth. This causes the GPS satellite > clock to "result in a delay of about 7 ìs/day". The aether pressure > associated with the aether displaced by the Earth exerts less pressure > on the GPS satellite than a similar clock at rest on the Earth > "causing the GPS clocks to appear faster by about 45 ìs/day". > Combining the pressure associated with the speed at which the GPS > satellite moves with respect to the aether and the pressure associated > with the aether displaced by the Earth causes "clocks on the GPS > satellites tick approximately 38 ìs/day faster than clocks on the > ground". > (quoted text fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_relativity_on_GPS). > > ______________________________________ > None of the quoted text mentions the ether. So it is impossible to see what > relevance it has. As I understand it, you believe that the equations of SR > are all correct, including the one that says the speed of light is constant > in inertial frames. Unless you have some disagreement about the predictions > of SR, or can derive the equations of SR in a novel way, then you appear to > have nothing to say. The aether is displaced by matter. The aether is not at rest when displaced and 'displaces back'. The 'displacing back' is the pressure the aether exerts towards the matter. The pressure associated with the aether displaced by massive objects is gravity. A moving C-60 molecule has an associated aether displacement wave. The observed behaviors in a double slit experiment with a C-60 molecule are due to the associated aether displacement wave entering and exiting the available slits while the C-60 molecule enters and exits a single slit. The observed behaviors in any double slit, 'delayed choice', or 'quantum eraser' experiment are due to the physical wave in the aether propagating the available paths and the 'particle' traveling a single path. In the image on the right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_choice_quantum_eraser#The_experiment There are physical waves in the aether traveling both the blue and red paths, while a photon 'particle' travels the blue or red path. Where the blue and red paths are combined in the image, the physical waves in the aether create interference which alters the direction the photon 'particle' travels. An atomic clock 'ticks' based upon the aether pressure it exists in. The speed of a GPS satellite with respect to the aether causes it to displace more aether and for that aether to exert more pressure on the clock in the GPS satellite than the aether pressure associated with a clock at rest with respect to the Earth. This causes the GPS satellite clock to "result in a delay of about 7 ìs/day". The aether pressure associated with the aether displaced by the Earth exerts less pressure on the GPS satellite than a similar clock at rest on the Earth "causing the GPS clocks to appear faster by about 45 ìs/day". Combining the aether pressure associated with the speed at which the GPS satellite moves in the aether and the aether pressure associated with the aether displaced by the Earth causes "clocks on the GPS satellites tick approximately 38 ìs/day faster than clocks on the ground." (quoted text from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_relativity_on_GPS). 'DOES THE INERTIA OF A BODY DEPEND UPON ITS ENERGY-CONTENT? By A. EINSTEIN' http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/e_mc2.pdf "If a body gives off the energy L in the form of radiation, its mass diminishes by L/c2." The mass of the body does diminish, but the matter which no longer exists as part of the body has not vanished. It still exists, as aether. As the matter transitions to aether it expands in three dimensions. The effect this transition has on the surrounding aether and matter is energy. Aether Displacement is a unified theory.
From: Peter Webb on 20 Feb 2010 22:45 "mpc755" <mpc755(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:7cfe6937-1504-456f-8ea0-4e80f55a6bea(a)c28g2000vbc.googlegroups.com... On Feb 20, 8:35 pm, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > ______________________________________ > > Here's a much simpler question, which has no mirrors, trains, > > embankments, > > lightning etc. > > > Lets say the earth is moving relative to the ether at speed v. We > > measure > > the speed of light in a vacuum on earth in the direction in which the > > earth > > is moving through the ether. What do we measure the speed of light to be > > in > > that laboratory on earth? c? c+v? c-v? Something else? > > The speed of light is 'measured' to be 'c'. It depends on the state of > the laboratory on Earth with respect to the aether if the speed of > light is 'c' with respect to the laboratory in nature. Since the > aether is at rest, or almost at rest, with respect to the surface of > the Earth, > > ______________________________________ > Ohh yeah. That's a pretty unfortunate co-incidence. So lets wait 6 months > until August 21st 2010; the earth will have moved 180 degrees in its orbit > around the Sun and be moving the the opposite direction, and hence have a > relative speed to the to ether of 60 kms/sec. What is the measured speed > of > light in a laboratory on earth moving at speed 60 kms/sec relative to the > ether? > What part of the aether is at rest with respect to the surface of the Earth are you unable to understand? _________________________________ You mean the surface of the earth is *always* at rest with respect to the ether? What happens if we repeat the experiment in a laboratory in low earth orbit? That will be moving at a speed of about 25,000 kph relative to the earth and hence to the ether. What will be the measured speed of light in this case, in a stallite in LEO ? > and since I am assuming the laboratory exists on the > surface of the Earth, then the light waves in the laboratory are > propagating at 'c' with respect to the aether which is at rest with > respect to the laboratory. So, in this situation, the light waves are > physically propagating at 'c' with respect to the laboratory. > And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative speed of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed of light then? > ________________________________ > And if the experiment is conducted 6 months from now, when the earth will > be > moving at a speed of 60 kms/sec relative to the ether, what will be the > measured speed? c + 60 kms/sec ? c - 60 kms/sec ? c? something else?
From: mpc755 on 20 Feb 2010 22:59 On Feb 20, 10:45 pm, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:7cfe6937-1504-456f-8ea0-4e80f55a6bea(a)c28g2000vbc.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 20, 8:35 pm, "Peter Webb" > > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > > ______________________________________ > > > Here's a much simpler question, which has no mirrors, trains, > > > embankments, > > > lightning etc. > > > > Lets say the earth is moving relative to the ether at speed v. We > > > measure > > > the speed of light in a vacuum on earth in the direction in which the > > > earth > > > is moving through the ether. What do we measure the speed of light to be > > > in > > > that laboratory on earth? c? c+v? c-v? Something else? > > > The speed of light is 'measured' to be 'c'. It depends on the state of > > the laboratory on Earth with respect to the aether if the speed of > > light is 'c' with respect to the laboratory in nature. Since the > > aether is at rest, or almost at rest, with respect to the surface of > > the Earth, > > > ______________________________________ > > Ohh yeah. That's a pretty unfortunate co-incidence. So lets wait 6 months > > until August 21st 2010; the earth will have moved 180 degrees in its orbit > > around the Sun and be moving the the opposite direction, and hence have a > > relative speed to the to ether of 60 kms/sec. What is the measured speed > > of > > light in a laboratory on earth moving at speed 60 kms/sec relative to the > > ether? > > What part of the aether is at rest with respect to the surface of the > Earth are you unable to understand? > > _________________________________ > You mean the surface of the earth is *always* at rest with respect to the > ether? > > What happens if we repeat the experiment in a laboratory in low earth orbit? > That will be moving at a speed of about 25,000 kph relative to the earth and > hence to the ether. If the laboratory is moving at 25,000 kph relative to the Earth the laboratory is not moving at 25,000 kph relative to the aether is less at rest with respect to the surface of the Earth at 25,000 kph than it is on the surface of the Earth. The analogy is if you go outside and you feel no wind and the trees are not moving you can still look up in the sky and see clouds moving past. The aether 'flows' east to west and gets less at rest with respect to the surface of the Earth the further from the surface of the Earth the aether is. > What will be the measured speed of light in this case, > in a stallite in LEO ? > > > and since I am assuming the laboratory exists on the > > surface of the Earth, then the light waves in the laboratory are > > propagating at 'c' with respect to the aether which is at rest with > > respect to the laboratory. So, in this situation, the light waves are > > physically propagating at 'c' with respect to the laboratory. > > And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative speed > of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed of > light then? > The light will be 'measured' to be 'c'. If the Observers in the laboratory in low Earth orbit know how they are moving with respect to the aether they will be able to determine the speed of light to be 'c' with respect to the aether. > > ________________________________ > > And if the experiment is conducted 6 months from now, when the earth will > > be > > moving at a speed of 60 kms/sec relative to the ether, what will be the > > measured speed? c + 60 kms/sec ? c - 60 kms/sec ? c? something else? > >
From: artful on 20 Feb 2010 23:13 On Feb 21, 2:59 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Feb 20, 10:45 pm, "Peter Webb" > > > > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > >news:7cfe6937-1504-456f-8ea0-4e80f55a6bea(a)c28g2000vbc.googlegroups.com.... > > On Feb 20, 8:35 pm, "Peter Webb" > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > > > ______________________________________ > > > > Here's a much simpler question, which has no mirrors, trains, > > > > embankments, > > > > lightning etc. > > > > > Lets say the earth is moving relative to the ether at speed v. We > > > > measure > > > > the speed of light in a vacuum on earth in the direction in which the > > > > earth > > > > is moving through the ether. What do we measure the speed of light to be > > > > in > > > > that laboratory on earth? c? c+v? c-v? Something else? > > > > The speed of light is 'measured' to be 'c'. It depends on the state of > > > the laboratory on Earth with respect to the aether if the speed of > > > light is 'c' with respect to the laboratory in nature. Since the > > > aether is at rest, or almost at rest, with respect to the surface of > > > the Earth, > > > > ______________________________________ > > > Ohh yeah. That's a pretty unfortunate co-incidence. So lets wait 6 months > > > until August 21st 2010; the earth will have moved 180 degrees in its orbit > > > around the Sun and be moving the the opposite direction, and hence have a > > > relative speed to the to ether of 60 kms/sec. What is the measured speed > > > of > > > light in a laboratory on earth moving at speed 60 kms/sec relative to the > > > ether? > > > What part of the aether is at rest with respect to the surface of the > > Earth are you unable to understand? > > > _________________________________ > > You mean the surface of the earth is *always* at rest with respect to the > > ether? > > > What happens if we repeat the experiment in a laboratory in low earth orbit? > > That will be moving at a speed of about 25,000 kph relative to the earth and > > hence to the ether. > > If the laboratory is moving at 25,000 kph relative to the Earth the > laboratory is not moving at 25,000 kph relative to the aether is less > at rest with respect to the surface of the Earth at 25,000 kph than it > is on the surface of the Earth. By how much? Would it be at rest WRT the orbiting laboratory? > The analogy is if you go outside and you feel no wind and the trees > are not moving you can still look up in the sky and see clouds moving > past. The aether 'flows' east to west and gets less at rest with > respect to the surface of the Earth the further from the surface of > the Earth the aether is. > > > What will be the measured speed of light in this case, > > in a stallite in LEO ? > > > > and since I am assuming the laboratory exists on the > > > surface of the Earth, then the light waves in the laboratory are > > > propagating at 'c' with respect to the aether which is at rest with > > > respect to the laboratory. So, in this situation, the light waves are > > > physically propagating at 'c' with respect to the laboratory. > > > And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative speed > > of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed of > > light then? > > The light will be 'measured' to be 'c'. So the lab must again at rest wrt the aether. > If the Observers in the > laboratory in low Earth orbit know how they are moving with respect to > the aether they will be able to determine the speed of light to be 'c' > with respect to the aether. You just contradicted yourself .. you said the speed of light will be c, so that must mean they are at rest wrt the aether. The question asked was NOT the speed wrt the aether, but what is the speed of light relative to the lab? What about in a train moving on the earth's surface .. would the aether be at rest relative to the train as well as the earth? Is there ANYWHERE that the aether is NOT at rest wrt some laboratory there?
From: Peter Webb on 20 Feb 2010 23:21
> And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative speed > of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed of > light then? > The light will be 'measured' to be 'c'. If the Observers in the laboratory in low Earth orbit know how they are moving with respect to the aether they will be able to determine the speed of light to be 'c' with respect to the aether. ______________________________________ So, according to you, in every inertial reference frame, the measured speed of light is "c", completely independent of how the observer is moving relative to the ether? |