A constant speed of light in all reference frames? Surely you can't be serious.
in [Relativity]
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From: Peter Webb on 21 Feb 2010 09:18 "mpc755" <mpc755(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:dba2b7ab-670a-473f-a7f3-5447e3f01e53(a)b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... On Feb 21, 12:27 am, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:1c9cf786-36cc-4fce-8b57-7f45f5b88ddd(a)v1g2000yqk.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 20, 11:21 pm, "Peter Webb" > > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > > And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative > > > speed > > > of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed > > > of > > > light then? > > > The light will be 'measured' to be 'c'. If the Observers in the > > laboratory in low Earth orbit know how they are moving with respect to > > the aether they will be able to determine the speed of light to be 'c' > > with respect to the aether. > > > ______________________________________ > > So, according to you, in every inertial reference frame, the measured > > speed > > of light is "c", completely independent of how the observer is moving > > relative to the ether? > > Measured, yes. > > ____________________________________ > OK, is the speed of light measured as 'c' in every inertial reference > frame? Measured, yes. _______________________________ How about the rest of the predictions of SR? Will lengths and times measure according to SR? You have no problem with the 80 foot ladder fitting inside the 40 foot barn, or the twins "paradox" ? But it is the reason why it it measure to be 'c' which is the important part when discussing what occurs physically in nature. The 'reference frame' is moving with respect to the aether. When Observers synchronize clocks and then move to their respective destinations they are not moving the same with respect to the aether. As in the train example, the Observer moving towards B' is moving against the 'flow' of the aether and their clock 'ticks' slower than the clock at M'. The Observer moving towards A' is moving with the 'flow' of aether and their clock 'ticks' faster than the clock at M'. This unsynching of the clocks offsets the fact the light propagates at 'c' with respect to the aether. A flash of light at M' will reach A' and then B' but the clocks at A' and B' will read the same due to their not be synchronized. The light will be reflected by mirrors and now travel in the exact opposite direction in terms of the 'flow' from A' back to M' and from B' back to M' so the light waves reach M' simultaneously. Flash of light occurs at M'. Light waves propagate with the 'flow' of aether towards A' and propagate against the 'flow' of aether towards B'. The light waves arrive at A' prior to arriving at B', in nature. But the time on each clock will read the same when the light arrives. The light waves then reflect off a mirror at A' and propagate against the 'flow' of aether towards M' and the light waves then reflect off a mirror at B' and propagate with the 'flow' of aether towards M'. The light from A' and B' arrives back at M' simultaneously. The Observers measure the speed of light to be 'c' while at the same time the light waves have propagated at 'c' with respect to the aether.
From: Bruce Richmond on 21 Feb 2010 11:28 On Feb 20, 11:21 pm, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative speed > > of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed of > > light then? > > The light will be 'measured' to be 'c'. If the Observers in the > laboratory in low Earth orbit know how they are moving with respect to > the aether they will be able to determine the speed of light to be 'c' > with respect to the aether. > > ______________________________________ > So, according to you, in every inertial reference frame, the measured speed > of light is "c", completely independent of how the observer is moving > relative to the ether? He is with good company on this point. Read the 1904 paper by Lorentz. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_phenomena "It is to be remarked that the formulae for a system without translation are implied in what precedes. For such a system the quantities with accents become identical to the corresponding ones without accents; also k=1 and l=1. The components of (27) are at the same time those of the electric force which is exerted by one polarized particle on another." Lorentz showed that the moving observer would measure the speed of light to be c in his own frame. Because of this there is no way to tell if you are at rest WRT the ether. But that doesn't prevent you from translating to the coordinates of another frame. If you just consider yourself to be at rest WRT the ether and work it out you get the same answer as you get by doing a two step translation from your frame to the ether to the other frame. Assuming you are at rest WRT the ether gives the same math as SR. Bruce
From: mpc755 on 21 Feb 2010 11:34 On Feb 21, 9:18 am, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:dba2b7ab-670a-473f-a7f3-5447e3f01e53(a)b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 21, 12:27 am, "Peter Webb" > > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > >news:1c9cf786-36cc-4fce-8b57-7f45f5b88ddd(a)v1g2000yqk.googlegroups.com... > > On Feb 20, 11:21 pm, "Peter Webb" > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > > > And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative > > > > speed > > > > of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed > > > > of > > > > light then? > > > > The light will be 'measured' to be 'c'. If the Observers in the > > > laboratory in low Earth orbit know how they are moving with respect to > > > the aether they will be able to determine the speed of light to be 'c' > > > with respect to the aether. > > > > ______________________________________ > > > So, according to you, in every inertial reference frame, the measured > > > speed > > > of light is "c", completely independent of how the observer is moving > > > relative to the ether? > > > Measured, yes. > > > ____________________________________ > > OK, is the speed of light measured as 'c' in every inertial reference > > frame? > > Measured, yes. > > _______________________________ > How about the rest of the predictions of SR? Will lengths and times measure > according to SR? You have no problem with the 80 foot ladder fitting inside > the 40 foot barn, or the twins "paradox" ? > I have already explained to you probably twenty times now the atomic clocks 'tick' based upon the aether pressure in which the exist. There may be length contraction at speeds near 'c'. What you fail to be able to understand is the rate at which a clock 'ticks' is based upon the aether pressure in which it exists. For example, we have a clock on the embankment and a clock on a train and both the train and the embankment exist in the same three dimensional space. Since the state of the aether is determined by its connections with the matter the state of the aether is that it can be considered to be at rest with respect to the embankment. Since the train is moving relative to the embankment the train is not at rest with respect to the train. The clocks on the train will 'tick' slower than the clocks on the embankment. This nonsense of the Observer on the train seeing the clock on the embankment 'tick' slower and the Observer on the embankment seeing the clock on the train 'tick' slower is exactly that, complete nonsense. If the Observer on the embankment can see the clock on the train the Observer on the embankment will determine the clock on the train to be 'ticking' slower than the clock on the embankment. If the Observer on the train can see the clock on the embankment the Observer on the train will determine the clock on the embankment to be 'ticking' faster than the clock on the train. If the Observers one the embankment and on the train have this information the Observers will conclude the embankment is more at rest with respect to the aether than the train is. > But it is the reason why it it measure to be 'c' which > is the important part when discussing what occurs physically in > nature. The 'reference frame' is moving with respect to the aether. > When Observers synchronize clocks and then move to their respective > destinations they are not moving the same with respect to the aether. > As in the train example, the Observer moving towards B' is moving > against the 'flow' of the aether and their clock 'ticks' slower than > the clock at M'. The Observer moving towards A' is moving with the > 'flow' of aether and their clock 'ticks' faster than the clock at M'. > This unsynching of the clocks offsets the fact the light propagates at > 'c' with respect to the aether. A flash of light at M' will reach A' > and then B' but the clocks at A' and B' will read the same due to > their not be synchronized. The light will be reflected by mirrors and > now travel in the exact opposite direction in terms of the 'flow' from > A' back to M' and from B' back to M' so the light waves reach M' > simultaneously. > > Flash of light occurs at M'. Light waves propagate with the 'flow' of > aether towards A' and propagate against the 'flow' of aether towards > B'. The light waves arrive at A' prior to arriving at B', in nature. > But the time on each clock will read the same when the light arrives. > The light waves then reflect off a mirror at A' and propagate against > the 'flow' of aether towards M' and the light waves then reflect off a > mirror at B' and propagate with the 'flow' of aether towards M'. The > light from A' and B' arrives back at M' simultaneously. The Observers > measure the speed of light to be 'c' while at the same time the light > waves have propagated at 'c' with respect to the aether.
From: Bruce Richmond on 21 Feb 2010 11:44 On Feb 21, 9:18 am, "Peter Webb" <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > news:dba2b7ab-670a-473f-a7f3-5447e3f01e53(a)b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... > On Feb 21, 12:27 am, "Peter Webb" > > > > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > "mpc755" <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > > >news:1c9cf786-36cc-4fce-8b57-7f45f5b88ddd(a)v1g2000yqk.googlegroups.com... > > On Feb 20, 11:21 pm, "Peter Webb" > > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > > > And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative > > > > speed > > > > of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed > > > > of > > > > light then? > > > > The light will be 'measured' to be 'c'. If the Observers in the > > > laboratory in low Earth orbit know how they are moving with respect to > > > the aether they will be able to determine the speed of light to be 'c' > > > with respect to the aether. > > > > ______________________________________ > > > So, according to you, in every inertial reference frame, the measured > > > speed > > > of light is "c", completely independent of how the observer is moving > > > relative to the ether? > > > Measured, yes. > > > ____________________________________ > > OK, is the speed of light measured as 'c' in every inertial reference > > frame? > > Measured, yes. > > _______________________________ > How about the rest of the predictions of SR? Will lengths and times measure > according to SR? You have no problem with the 80 foot ladder fitting inside > the 40 foot barn, or the twins "paradox" ? It would be nice if you got a news reader that properly attributed quotes. The way you are doing it, it is not clear where your comment leaves off and we return to those of the previous poster. To answer your question, there is no reason he should have any problem with it. Each frame uses its own local time when making observations. In the frame that measures the ladder to be 80 feet long, both ends of the ladder aren't inside the barn at the same time. Bruce mpc755 wrote: > But it is the reason why it it measure to be 'c' which > is the important part when discussing what occurs physically in > nature. The 'reference frame' is moving with respect to the aether. > When Observers synchronize clocks and then move to their respective > destinations they are not moving the same with respect to the aether. > As in the train example, the Observer moving towards B' is moving > against the 'flow' of the aether and their clock 'ticks' slower than > the clock at M'. The Observer moving towards A' is moving with the > 'flow' of aether and their clock 'ticks' faster than the clock at M'. > This unsynching of the clocks offsets the fact the light propagates at > 'c' with respect to the aether. A flash of light at M' will reach A' > and then B' but the clocks at A' and B' will read the same due to > their not be synchronized. The light will be reflected by mirrors and > now travel in the exact opposite direction in terms of the 'flow' from > A' back to M' and from B' back to M' so the light waves reach M' > simultaneously. > > Flash of light occurs at M'. Light waves propagate with the 'flow' of > aether towards A' and propagate against the 'flow' of aether towards > B'. The light waves arrive at A' prior to arriving at B', in nature. > But the time on each clock will read the same when the light arrives. > The light waves then reflect off a mirror at A' and propagate against > the 'flow' of aether towards M' and the light waves then reflect off a > mirror at B' and propagate with the 'flow' of aether towards M'. The > light from A' and B' arrives back at M' simultaneously. The Observers > measure the speed of light to be 'c' while at the same time the light > waves have propagated at 'c' with respect to the aether.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: mpc755 on 21 Feb 2010 11:44
On Feb 21, 11:28 am, Bruce Richmond <bsr3...(a)my-deja.com> wrote: > On Feb 20, 11:21 pm, "Peter Webb" > > <webbfam...(a)DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote: > > > And if conducted in a laboratory in low earth orbit, with a relative speed > > > of 25,000 kph relative to the ether - what will be the measured speed of > > > light then? > > > The light will be 'measured' to be 'c'. If the Observers in the > > laboratory in low Earth orbit know how they are moving with respect to > > the aether they will be able to determine the speed of light to be 'c' > > with respect to the aether. > > > ______________________________________ > > So, according to you, in every inertial reference frame, the measured speed > > of light is "c", completely independent of how the observer is moving > > relative to the ether? > > He is with good company on this point. Read the 1904 paper by > Lorentz. > > http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_phenomena > > "It is to be remarked that the formulae for a system without > translation are implied in what precedes. For such a system the > quantities with accents become identical to the corresponding ones > without accents; also k=1 and l=1. The components of (27) are at the > same time those of the electric force which is exerted by one > polarized particle on another." > > Lorentz showed that the moving observer would measure the speed of > light to be c in his own frame. Because of this there is no way to > tell if you are at rest WRT the ether. But that doesn't prevent you > from translating to the coordinates of another frame. If you just > consider yourself to be at rest WRT the ether and work it out you get > the same answer as you get by doing a two step translation from your > frame to the ether to the other frame. Assuming you are at rest WRT > the ether gives the same math as SR. > > Bruce I think where I differ from Lorentz is in the 'ticking' rate of atomic clocks. Two frames are moving relative to one another. I think Lorentz is saying each Observer in a reference frame 'sees' the other Observer's clock as 'ticking' slower than their own. This I disagree with. The more at rest with respect to the aether an atomic clock is the faster it 'ticks'. If the embankment is at rest with respect to the aether and the train is moving with respect to the aether then the clock on the embankment 'ticks' faster than the clock on the train. The Observer on the embankment and the Observer on the train will arrive at the same conclusion which is the clock on the embankment 'ticks' faster than the clock on the train. |