Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA
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From: Arved Sandstrom on 29 Apr 2010 05:18 Arne Vajh�j wrote: > On 28-04-2010 20:12, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >> Up until not so long ago I recommended making use of a text editor for >> initial basic learning. Now that I've really thought it though, I see no >> point in using anything but a good IDE. An IDE provides assistance in >> entering code, and there's nothing wrong with that. > > There is nothing wrong with the code typing assistance. > > But IDE from day 1 often result in people that do not know > anything about how to run things outside the IDE. > > Arne That's entirely possible, that some people will have barely any grasp of how to work outside the IDE. If we discount developers leaving the IDE fro time to time to use a word processor or web browser, and also include the ability of the IDE to call up server consoles and what not, then these days with the latest IDEs a person can likely get away with using the IDE for everything and not suffer. AHS
From: cr88192 on 29 Apr 2010 11:03 "Mike Schilling" <mscottschilling(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:hravba$j2l$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > Tom Anderson wrote: >> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010, cr88192 wrote: >> >>> "Lew" <lew(a)lewscanon.com> wrote in message >>> news:7715fd2a-a507-4869-8ec4-a91faa495bc4(a)g30g2000yqc.googlegroups.com... >>>> cr88192 wrote: >>>>> anymore, I typically just do coding (in general) via the mix of >>>>> Notepad, >>>> >>>> Notepad is very bad for Java programming because most extant >>>> versions don't handle Unicode and they don't like cross-platform >>>> line endings. >>> >>> but, we all know CRLF is the proper cross-platform line ending, since >>> after all, it is used by Windows... (and typically people develop on >>> Windows for Windows anyways, most non-Windows development often >>> being a misnomer...). even when it is for non-Windows deployment, it >>> is still typically developing on Windows for whatever is their >>> target OS / HW... >> >> ! >> >> I don't know a single good developer who develops on Windows. > > You know me :-) I develop on Windows because it's what most of my > customers use, and also because I develop stuff that combines Java and > .NET. yep. granted, Windows is not exactly the perfect OS by any means, but for various reasons it may be difficult to justify not using it... otherwise, one may end up producing apps which many possible customers/users would be unable to use (or use well, as one often gets cross-developed apps which can be buggy or wonky when used on Windows...). also, Wine still tends not to work very well, and QEMU+WinXP or similar is inconvinient. (actually, I have also recently seen Win7's XPMode, which seems to be reasonably good for an emulator setup, since the mouse transitions easily, it supports desktop-integration, ...). granted, if Linux managed to become dominant among end-users (and got good app/vendor/... support), then there would be little reason not to use it. sadly, in some ways its strengths are its weaknesses, and I am left to doubt that it could compete on equal terms with Windows... (in particular, with the ways HW and SW vendors typically do things...). solid binary ABI's and binary-compatibility would do much to help matters. expecting people to distribute source or build their binaries for damn near every version of every distro is unworkable... or such...
From: Roedy Green on 29 Apr 2010 12:48 On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:27:14 -0700 (PDT), Clarence Blumstein <blumstein.clarence(a)gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said : >Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about >to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when >are a beginner? You might use an IDE designed for beginners, see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/ide.html just so you won't be overwhelmed. There is something to be said for learning to drive with a manual shift -- analogously no IDE to start so you understand better what goes on under the hood. On the other paw, IntelliJ's ability to let me look at any source code with a click greatly speeds up understanding how Java works. -- Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products http://mindprod.com It�s amazing how much structure natural languages have when you consider who speaks them and how they evolved.
From: Jim Janney on 29 Apr 2010 23:32 ram(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes: > Arved Sandstrom <dcest61(a)hotmail.com> writes: >>I agree with all of the above - now. Prior to 2000 I used text editors > > »[T]he only 3 editors we know to be used by great > hackers are TextMate, vim and emacs. (...) > > We haven't met a single great hacker that relied > on an IDE, although we hear they exist.« > > http://giraffesoft.ca/blog/2009/03/10/4-core-competencies-of-great-hackers.html > > »He declined offers of typing help, and just kept > writing away in pencil. He rewrote parts, copied > things over, erased and rewrote. > > Finally André took his neat final pencil copy to a > terminal and typed the whole program in (...) > the VTOC manager worked perfectly from then on.« > > http://www.multicians.org/andre.html > > I ordered my first computer in 1977, but it was delivered > not before 1978. In the meantime, I learned »my« first > programming language »BASIC« by reading a book and writing > programs on paper, executing them in my mind. So, when the > Pet 2001 finally arrived, I already was able to program it. I started programming with punch cards, first in Fortran and then Algol W -- you'd write everything out by hand and then stand in line for one of the keypunches. It did make you check everything over and over and over again. Still, I wouldn't recommend doing that now. -- Jim Janney
From: Arved Sandstrom on 30 Apr 2010 05:49
Jim Janney wrote: > ram(a)zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes: > >> Arved Sandstrom <dcest61(a)hotmail.com> writes: >>> I agree with all of the above - now. Prior to 2000 I used text editors >> »[T]he only 3 editors we know to be used by great >> hackers are TextMate, vim and emacs. (...) >> >> We haven't met a single great hacker that relied >> on an IDE, although we hear they exist.« >> >> http://giraffesoft.ca/blog/2009/03/10/4-core-competencies-of-great-hackers.html >> >> »He declined offers of typing help, and just kept >> writing away in pencil. He rewrote parts, copied >> things over, erased and rewrote. >> >> Finally André took his neat final pencil copy to a >> terminal and typed the whole program in (...) >> the VTOC manager worked perfectly from then on.« >> >> http://www.multicians.org/andre.html >> >> I ordered my first computer in 1977, but it was delivered >> not before 1978. In the meantime, I learned »my« first >> programming language »BASIC« by reading a book and writing >> programs on paper, executing them in my mind. So, when the >> Pet 2001 finally arrived, I already was able to program it. > > I started programming with punch cards, first in Fortran and then > Algol W -- you'd write everything out by hand and then stand in line > for one of the keypunches. It did make you check everything over and > over and over again. Still, I wouldn't recommend doing that now. > You and me both, actually, although for me it was just the FORTRAN. What that taught me was to be careful when using the keypunch. Yes, it also taught me to be fairly careful of language errors, but mostly I gained respect for meticulous typing. In effect the main lesson from using punched cards was to avoid typos. I progressed from cards to line editors on basic terminals, then fairly quickly to vi and emacs on UNIX, then decent programing text editors on various Macs and PCs, and finally to IDEs (although I'll still use command line or text editors where they shine, e.g I'll usually do complicated Subversion on the C.L. outside Eclipse, then refresh the Eclipse workspace). To be brutally honest, while each step in that progression did teach me not to be sloppy, I believe I would have learned that lesson soon enough if starting with an IDE. To put it another way, I don't think the tools you use teach you to be a good programmer. Which is sort of an undercurrent I'm sensing here in parts of this thread. I think mental discipline that you have already is what carries the day. If you're sloppy when using an IDE you'll be sloppy when using vim. I read a story like the one about Andre Bensoussan (http://www.multicians.org/andre.html) and, no disrespect meant to the dead, but the part about him writing and erasing and rewriting, when he actually got to writing code, when terminals and electronic editor programs were available, is just silly. I also happen to believe that a lot of these folks who praise text editors to the skies, and who think that great hackers don't use IDEs, are making a virtue out of artificial and unnecessary self-imposed constraints. Unless I take a programming text editor and heavily customize it, in effect making it an IDE, there are many things I can do in an IDE that I can't do with the text editor alone. Many of those things are very useful and time-saving. I could do them on the command line or with shell scripts, but then I'd be re-inventing the wheel. If I chose not to do them at all, or wasn't even aware that I could do them, I hardly think that's praiseworthy. In any case I'd be spending more of my time in a non-IDE situation to get the job done. I don't doubt that a lot of very good programmers use text editors rather than IDEs. More power to them - I'll stick with IDEs where they suit, because they allow me to get work done faster. A lot depends on exactly what it is that people are writing. If I was writing a Linux device driver in C I'd be cool with vim. But these days, where I have to deal with .NET or J2EE web apps with thousands of source files, I'd be an imbecile to try and do that with emacs. AHS |