Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA
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From: BGB / cr88192 on 1 May 2010 19:55 "Arved Sandstrom" <dcest61(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:LA%Cn.3184$Z6.2075(a)edtnps82... > BGB / cr88192 wrote: >> "Arved Sandstrom" <dcest61(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:L9cCn.2790$z%6.1619(a)edtnps83... >>> Arne Vajh�j wrote: >>>> On 28-04-2010 20:12, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>>>> Up until not so long ago I recommended making use of a text editor for >>>>> initial basic learning. Now that I've really thought it though, I see >>>>> no >>>>> point in using anything but a good IDE. An IDE provides assistance in >>>>> entering code, and there's nothing wrong with that. >>>> There is nothing wrong with the code typing assistance. >>>> >>>> But IDE from day 1 often result in people that do not know >>>> anything about how to run things outside the IDE. >>>> >>>> Arne >>> That's entirely possible, that some people will have barely any grasp of >>> how to work outside the IDE. If we discount developers leaving the IDE >>> fro time to time to use a word processor or web browser, and also >>> include the ability of the IDE to call up server consoles and what not, >>> then these days with the latest IDEs a person can likely get away with >>> using the IDE for everything and not suffer. >>> >> >> and then experience vendor lock-in and the inability to "port" their code >> to another OS (or IDE...). > > Only if they don't understand where all the artifacts are. Which both of > us comment on further below. > yep. >> one could easily see such a person trying to, say, copy-paste piles of >> code (from the editor windows, or worse-yet, from the GUI designer) >> between, say, Visual Studio and Eclipse, and not really have any idea why >> all their stuff is blowing up in their face, or end up bewildered at the >> thought of how to make use of 3rd party libraries, ... >> >> so, there is some merit in a developer having some understanding of what >> is going on underneath. >> >> it is much like how there is merit in end users having some idea how the >> filesystem works, and so not being hopelessly confused with the idea of >> how to send contents from "My Documents" to a different computer. > > You won't find me arguing that an IDE user shouldn't understand all source > artifacts generated by the IDE. In my experience when using the various > Java IDEs, or Visual Studio, or somewhat more esoteric IDEs like Anjuta or > Leksah, you can always find the "raw stuff" so that you can, if necessary, > dispense with the IDE and proceed with text editor and command line tools. > > Also in my experience, developers that are going to amount to anything do > find out what the sources - Java, C#, F#, HTML/XHTML, XML etc - are, and > how to edit them directly. And in any case a developer using an IDE may, > depending on inclination, be looking at the unvarnished source just as if > they were using a text editor like vi, except that the IDE also > understands that source but vi doesn't. > yep. I guess this makes sense. actually, one could encourage developers to mess with and look at the various files, fileformats, ... in order to get a better idea of what is there and how it works (even as much as the thing may look like some magic do-everything frontend...). but, I have seen plenty of people get stuck on the whole Word <-> My Documents <-> Filesystem issue. notatbly, there are classes at colleges to try to address these sorts of issues. theoretically, these people are still otherwise-productive individuals, just for whatever reason they never really learn what goes on in the OS (and the way Windows is designed at times doesn't help, it is about like they try to specially design it so that people don't actually learn what is going on, them instead apparently imagining the computer as some magic box which stores Word documents or similar...). I have also seen people get dismayed when they manage to change directories (or end up somehow saving their document somewhere else), and end up thinking that all their documents have just disappeared, ... then again, maybe these sorts of people are also unlikely to become programmers?... > The only thing I have no patience with is if a developer lets an IDE > shortcoming or defect stall them in getting work done, when there is > *always* a way of bypassing the IDE. I've seen people get stuck with flaky > server adapters in Eclipse, or buggy ESB/BPEL configuration wizards in > JDeveloper, or have EAR deployment issues to J2EE servers, when all they > had to do was work outside the IDE for these things. > yes, ok.
From: Arne Vajhøj on 1 May 2010 20:11 On 28-04-2010 22:34, JussiJ wrote: > On Apr 28, 4:55 am, Lew<l...(a)lewscanon.com> wrote: >> Notepad is very bad for Java programming because most extant versions >> don't handle Unicode and they don't like cross-platform line endings. > > The Zeus editor does not have these issues and it supports Java: > > http://www.zeusedit.com Plenty of editors does. That is not really the discussion topic. Arne
From: Arne Vajhøj on 1 May 2010 20:13 On 28-04-2010 08:43, Tom Anderson wrote: > On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Arne Vajh?j wrote: > >> On 27-04-2010 14:55, Lew wrote: >>> cr88192 wrote: >>>> anymore, I typically just do coding (in general) via the mix of >>>> Notepad, >>> >>> Notepad is very bad for Java programming because most extant versions >>> don't handle Unicode and they don't like cross-platform line endings. >> >> Notepad has supported Unicode since at least Windows XP from 2002. >> >> There are no such a thing as cross-platform line endings. >> >> It is true that notepad only supports the Windows CR LF, which >> means that it does not work when text files are moved as binary >> files from *nix. >> >> But instead of blaming notepad then people should transfer the >> files correctly. > > Rubbish. Should they unpack every jar they move across and see if it has > text files in, so they can convert them? Should they then have to > magically re-sign any sealed packages whose contents have changed? Given that notepad does not support editing of text files inside jar files, then there are absolutely no point in that nor any relevance for the discussion. Arne
From: Arne Vajhøj on 1 May 2010 20:21 On 28-04-2010 12:40, Tom Anderson wrote: > I don't know a single good developer who develops on Windows. .... > I'm sure good developers who use Windows exist, but *everyone* i know > who's worth their salt uses either a Mac or Linux. Maybe you don't know companies where the company decide what OS their employees run and where the choice of OS is Windows. But that tells more about your level of experience than the Java world. > As for deployment, i've been involved in exactly one project that was > planning to deploy on Windows. As far as i know, that project is still > in the process of bursting into flames and dying, although that's got > little if anything to do with its target platform. A recent survey showed the following target platforms for Java EE: Window 57% Redhat & Centos 35% SUSE 12% Other Linux 16% Solaris 18% AIX 14% HP-UX 5% Other 7% No answer 18% (it adds to a lot more than 100% because many deploy on multiple platforms) Arne
From: Arne Vajhøj on 1 May 2010 20:25
On 01-05-2010 10:25, John B. Matthews wrote: > In article<hrghdl$35u$1(a)news.albasani.net>, > "BGB / cr88192"<cr88192(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> Java imposes the one-class-per-file restriction > > More specifically, one public, top-level class per file. There can be an > arbitrary number of package-private and nested classes. > > <http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/third_edition/html/packages.html#7.6> This just say: <quote> When packages are stored in a file system (§7.2.1), the host system may choose to enforce the restriction that ... </quote> But SUN's implementation (and probably all other common implementations) of Java compiler does enforce. Arne |