GETTING RID OF EINSTEIN RELATIVITY
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From: Dr. Henri Wilson on 21 Oct 2007 18:09 On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:34:13 +0100, "George Dishman" <george(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >"Jerry" <Cephalobus_alienus(a)comcast.net> wrote in message >news:1192913993.809726.3630(a)e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com... >> On Oct 16, 2:50 am, George Dishman <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>> On 15 Oct, 23:24, HW@....(Clueless Henri Wilson) wrote: >>> >>> > On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:52:37 +0100, "George Dishman" >>> > <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> > >Try to think that through Henry, I'm sure it will >>> > >give you some difficulty. >>> >>> > I have already George. Much of what you say is >>> > basically correct except that you are completely >>> > overlooking the vital question of what happens >>> > during an acceleration. >>> > The answer is, "everything". >>> >>> The fringes will vary in a complex way but there >>> is no memory in the system. Sagnac didn't switch >>> on the light bulb until the speed was stable so >>> what would have happened to fringes had he switched >>> on the bulb is moot, only the phase difference >>> while the bulb was on matters. >> >> I've survived Midterm Week! After getting home Friday, >> I decided to write a new applet to address Henri's >> misconceptions about how acceleration may affect the >> results. >> >> Original applet: >> http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/sagnac/BallisticSagnac.htm >> >> Scroll down a bit for the new applet, or click on the following: >> http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/sagnac/BallisticSagnac.htm#transients >> >> Here are my comments on my web site concerning the new applet: > >Excellent Jerry, though Henry doesn't have the >ability to understand any of this. Still, the >point is that any lurkers who have trouble >following the verbal descriptions can access >the applet and see what ballistic theory really >says. I often think it must be difficult for >anyone coming into such a long running thread >to pick up on the references to previous parts >of the discussions. I must congratulate Jerry. He/she/it has proved that a ring gyro based on the interference of sound waves moving both ways around a toroidal ring full of air wont work if all the air is removed. >best regards >George > Henri Wilson. ASTC,BSc,DSc(T) www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/index.htm
From: Androcles on 21 Oct 2007 18:47 "Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message news:3thnh3tt9m435jbblne8nveuhsa6uhua5f(a)4ax.com... : On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 09:02:33 GMT, "Androcles" <Engineer(a)hogwarts.physics> : wrote: : : > : >"Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message : >news:elclh3pg8rj180prv9bs0rilk4savk5mfj(a)4ax.com... : >: On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:25:17 GMT, "Androcles" <Engineer(a)hogwarts.physics> : : >: >These three wheels are all in phase all the time: : >: > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/inphase.gif : >: >These three are NEVER in phase: : >: > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nophase.gif : >: > : >: >Explain that, Wilson. : >: : >: What is there to explain? : > : >Why one set is in phase and the other isn't. : : Nice little toy you have there... : ...reminds me of the meccano sets we had as kids... : ....some became enginers as a result. Some became physicists. Which is why we get the big bucks, being able to explain simple clockwork that is beyond the capability of a mere physicist. Explain that, Wilson. : : >: If you want to represent a ring gyro... : > : >I don't right now, I want you to explain phase and tick fairies. : > : >These three wheels are all in phase all the time: : > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/inphase.gif : >These three are NEVER in phase: : > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nophase.gif : > : >Explain that, Wilson. : : I wont keep repeating my answer to this monotonous nonsense. You haven't given any answer. Obviously you are beaten by simple gear wheels.
From: Androcles on 21 Oct 2007 19:02 "Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message news:p3jnh39r3htk22nq9ce8ka2l0bp6nrnc4m(a)4ax.com... : On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 09:12:33 GMT, "Androcles" <Engineer(a)hogwarts.physics> : wrote: : : > : >"Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message : >news:utclh3lpnipbhahhic0coshi83jm7be6fs(a)4ax.com... : >: On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:44:51 GMT, "Androcles" <Engineer(a)hogwarts.physics> : >: wrote: : >: : >: > : >: >"Dr. Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message : : >: > : >: >Give up, Wilson, the tick fairy cannot help you. : >: : >: No tick fairies needed. They are all employed by relativists anyway. : > : >How do you explain this, then? : > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/inphase.gif : > http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/nophase.gif : : I had a meccano set when I was a kid too. I have also fixed lots of car : garboxes. gar: http://thedallascowboyreport.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/gar3.jpg garbox: http://www.techgadgetforums.com/files/apple_aquarium.jpg Fit that gar in that garbox and it would need fixing. So... you are defeated by a kiddy meccano set. Physicists can't count and don't know what phase is. Better go back to fishing.
From: Jerry on 22 Oct 2007 00:41 On Oct 18, 6:38 pm, "George Dishman" <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: > "Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in messagenews:08ffh39c9j2ac1pligl8k1vi8fnmd3ba45(a)4ax.com... > > Thiis might help. > > www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/toothwheel.exe > > (It is not complete and doesn't seem to want to run > > properly on windows Vista...but not many things do). > > > The toothed wheel represents a snapshot of BOTH rays > > when they are in phase at the emission point. > > Useless, the whole point is that they move at > different speeds. Show that and see what happens. > > > The teeth represent absolute wavelengths. > > That part is correct but just make each part move > at the right speed and it falls out automatically. > > > It is not shown moving because the positions of the > > teeth at that instant is independent of light speed. > > That's your error, the waves have to get from source > to detector and that takes time. > > > The red and blue lines show the rays moving at c+v > > and c-v. They travel for the same time and meet at > > the detector together. > > You need to show them as moving waves. > > > If you vary the ring rotation speed via the combo > > box, you will see that the phases of the rays when > > they reunite are not the same. > > > If you want to argue against this approach, I remind > > you that it gives the experimentally verified answer. > > Irrelevant, it is wrong. As I said before, it gives > you the answer you WANT. It isn't the CORRECT answer. > > I would also remind you that SR gives the right answer > if you want to use that argument. See Henri Wilson's Strange Version of Wave Mechanics http://mysite.verizon.net/cephalobus_alienus/toothwheel/toothwheel.htm Jerry
From: George Dishman on 22 Oct 2007 03:05
On 21 Oct, 22:56, HW@....(Clueless Henri Wilson) wrote: > On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 11:26:18 +0100, "George Dishman" <geo...(a)briar.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >"Clueless Henri Wilson" <HW@....> wrote in message > >news:j5vkh352fclcpn5foofltrc9aba5n0na6j(a)4ax.com... > >> On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:08:45 +0100, "George Dishman" > >>>Henry, the phase in your program doesn't "arrive" > >>>anywhere, the wiggly line doesn't move. > > >> It isn't supposed to. It merely shows a snapshot of wavecrest positions > >> FOR > >> BOTH RAYS at the instant when the two rays are emitted IN PHASE. > > >At the instant they are emitted, it is OK. > >At the instant they are detected it is wrong > >because the waves have moved between the two > >snapshots. If you move the wave at the right > >speed you will find that the waves are in phase > >at the detector and at the source but not at > >the marker which is static in the lab frame. > > The program moves the waves at c+v and c-v, where v is th ring speed. No it doesn't, the _waves_ don't move at all. > That's > why their travel times are the same and they meet at the detector at the same > instant. And that is why they must be in phase, the are emitted in phase, take the same time to get there so simple addition requires that they arrive in phase, your diagram is wrong. > the equations are at:www.users.bigpond.com/hewn/ringgyro.htm You divide by the wrong number as I have pointed out repeatedly. > >Leaving the wave unmoving and showing a progress > >bar gets it wrong. > > Sorry George, the theory is fully backed by experiment.... Siorry Henry, the theory predicts no fringe displacement, your lack of any mathematical ability means you have the calculations wrong. > >> It makes no > >> difference if the wheel spins. The positions of the teeth are the same. > > >The _spacings_ remain the same but every tooth > >moves. > > We are only interested in the phase difference at the detector. At least you have learned that fact. > That is given > by (pathlength difference)/lambda. No, it is given by initialphase + (pathlength difference)/(distance moved per cycle) because the path length is the total distance _moved_. > >> I am quite aware of what phase is. > > >I don't think so. > > You are treating light in the same way as you would sound in air. The definition of the phase of a sine wave is not dependent on its application. > >> The phase of the part of the wave that was originally emitted IN PHASE at > >> the > >> start point is clearly shown at the detection point. > > >> The waves are generally NOT in phase when they reunite. > > >Move the waves at the speed required by ballistic > >theory as Jerry has correctly shown and they _are_ > >in phase. > > Jerry's program is wrong. Jerry's program is right, she moves the waves at the correct speed while yours don't move at all. ... > >> I have spent years looking at waves on CROs George. > > >Another of your fantasies Henry? > > >> I obviously know a lot more about the subject than you do. > > >Obviously not if you think you think they don't move. > > George, tell me this. Why do water waves move in one particular direction, when > the water molecules themselves move only vertically. Because what moves horizontally across the ocean and determines the speed we assign to the wave is the location of a particular phase point on the wave, not any aspect of the molecules of which it is composed. When ballistic theory says the speed is c+v, that refers to a point of given phase on the wave. > To put that another way, "What determines the direction of energy transfer?" Interference, which is the basis of Huygens Principle. George |