How do you design these days?
in [Design]
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From: Tim Wescott on 30 Dec 2009 21:56 On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:20:04 -0800, Joerg wrote: > RogerN wrote: >> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we >> made circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and >> oscilloscopes. Many of today's components don't appear to be >> breadboard friendly, so how is it done today? >> >> > I even used bare thumbtacks on plywood for solder posts back then. > > >> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to >> a PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do >> you still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >> >> > In the professional world (product design) we go straight from > simulation to schematic -> layout -> board fab -> assembly. No > breadboards. Although if it's a really complex board it may suffer a few mods before it's really done. -- www.wescottdesign.com
From: D from BC on 30 Dec 2009 23:02 On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:01:39 -0600, "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: > >When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made >circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. Many >of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how is it >done today? > >Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a PC >board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you still >use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? > >I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in >only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to >solder. > >Thanks! > >RogerN > My motto: If it works on a breadboard, it's not worth producing. On my current project, I have to feed the simulator pcb parasitics and component parasistics to get accurate simulations. I've had to bench test to get some parasitics. Once parasitics are included, scope results and simulation results get close. If all looks good on sim, I make a pcb, etch it and bench test it. I trashed all my breadboards years ago and only work with smd parts. I do hot plate soldering. It's that or .... I put the micro leprechauns to work with tiny soldering pens.
From: krw on 31 Dec 2009 00:17 On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:20:04 -0800, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >RogerN wrote: >> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made >> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. Many >> of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how is it >> done today? >> > >I even used bare thumbtacks on plywood for solder posts back then. > > >> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a PC >> board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you still >> use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >> > >In the professional world (product design) we go straight from >simulation to schematic -> layout -> board fab -> assembly. No breadboards. In our case, "assembly" is fully automated pick-n-place on the same line as the manufactured board. For a new board manufacturing will use it for the temperature profile too. We have a prototype machine for raw boards but it's never worked. If they can get it to work I may use it for a few test circuits. >> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in >> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to >> solder. >> > >Well, for hobbyists or one-off designs there is help but not very cheap: > >http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/images/PRODUCTS/PA0027_0.JPG > >This is the variety they have but I don't know this shop, just meant as >an example: > >http://www.proto-advantage.com/store/index.php?cPath=2200
From: John Larkin on 31 Dec 2009 01:10 On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 18:37:18 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman <bill.sloman(a)ieee.org> wrote: >On Dec 31, 3:01�am, "RogerN" <re...(a)midwest.net> wrote: >> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made >> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. �Many >> of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how is it >> done today? >> >> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a PC >> board? �Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? �Do you still >> use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >> >> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in >> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to >> solder. > >For fast circuits, where cross-talk and transmission line effect can >be important, there isn't much point in building a prototype on a >breadboard - the printed circuit layout is a crucial part of the >design. I test GHz stuff by hacking a piece of FR4... ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/BB_fast.JPG You can get the impedances pretty much correct. For slower stuff, I like the Bellin adapters http://www.beldynsys.com/ ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/NE3509M04.JPG I hate those solderless breadboards. I like to build things live-bug on copperclad, comment them with a marker pen, and keep them. John
From: John Larkin on 31 Dec 2009 01:15
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:02:02 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress(a)comic.com> wrote: >On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:01:39 -0600, "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> >wrote: > >> >>When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made >>circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. Many >>of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how is it >>done today? >> >>Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a PC >>board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you still >>use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >> >>I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in >>only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to >>solder. >> >>Thanks! >> >>RogerN >> > >My motto: >If it works on a breadboard, it's not worth producing. > >On my current project, I have to feed the simulator pcb parasitics and >component parasistics to get accurate simulations. >I've had to bench test to get some parasitics. Once parasitics are >included, scope results and simulation results get close. > >If all looks good on sim, I make a pcb, etch it and bench test it. One problem is that device models often aren't available for fast parts, or all you get are S-params when you need large-signal time-domain stuff. So sometimes you can learn a lot by hacking some FR4 and testing parts. I never breadboard entire products, or even complex circuits... just enough to characterize parts or simple subcircuits. This is an EL07 driving a PHEMT... ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/BB_fast.JPG which made decent 5-volt, 1 GHz square waves. John |