How do you design these days?
in [Design]
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From: Jan Panteltje on 31 Dec 2009 11:29 On a sunny day (Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:10:22 -0700) it happened Don Lancaster <don(a)tinaja.com> wrote in <7q40n8FojqU1(a)mid.individual.net>: >> Why not go for the real thing, first time? If you get it right, you >> can sell it. >> >> John >> > >It is NEVER right the first time. I have done boards with more then 30 chips that worked right the first time. Good thing too, as having them layed out and made was expensive.
From: John Larkin on 31 Dec 2009 11:52 On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:10:22 -0700, Don Lancaster <don(a)tinaja.com> wrote: >John Larkin wrote: >> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:01:44 -0000, "markp" <map.nospam(a)f2s.com> >> wrote: >> >>> "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote in message >>> news:ROudnXLvg9-Tm6HWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... >>>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we made >>>> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. >>>> Many of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so how >>>> is it done today? >>>> >>>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to a >>>> PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you >>>> still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >>>> >>>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested in >>>> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt to >>>> solder. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> RogerN >>>> >>>> >>> I tend to design a PCB with CAD software then have prototype PCBs made. >>> There are several companies out there who do 'pooling', i.e. they amalgamate >>> many designs onto one PCB, that way you end up only paying a small fraction >>> of the tooling cost of the PCB. Some companies can handle 6 layer boards >>> with this process. Example in the UK is PCB Snap from Spirit Circuits >>> (www.spiritcircuits.com). >>> >>> This can be quite cost effectve for producing protptypes that are as close >>> to the final product as practicable. >> >> Why not go for the real thing, first time? If you get it right, you >> can sell it. >> >> John >> > >It is NEVER right the first time. We sell about 80% of our rev A boards, with no prototypes. Assuming the first unit won't work is self-fulfilling, and a good way to make sure the third iteration won't work either. And my cabin automation hardware worked absolutely unaltered the first time! John
From: markp on 31 Dec 2009 12:17 > >> >>"RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote in message >>news:ROudnXLvg9-Tm6HWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... >>> >>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we >>> made >>> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. >>> Many of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so >>> how >>> is it done today? >>> >>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight to >>> a >>> PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you >>> still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >>> >>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested >>> in >>> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt >>> to >>> solder. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> RogerN >>> >>> >> >>I tend to design a PCB with CAD software then have prototype PCBs made. >>There are several companies out there who do 'pooling', i.e. they >>amalgamate >>many designs onto one PCB, that way you end up only paying a small >>fraction >>of the tooling cost of the PCB. Some companies can handle 6 layer boards >>with this process. Example in the UK is PCB Snap from Spirit Circuits >>(www.spiritcircuits.com). >> >>This can be quite cost effectve for producing protptypes that are as close >>to the final product as practicable. > > Why not go for the real thing, first time? If you get it right, you > can sell it. > > John > Well, I would if I were selling them. I'm a consultant designer, so generally I deliver working protoypes on the undestanding they are just prototypes and the customers make the first small batch. Given that the actual design information will probably need to be tweeked slightly anyway to match any mods I make it's not worth me spending more money than necessary. For a hobbyist making one or two off it's really not worth it. Mark.
From: markp on 31 Dec 2009 12:24 "John Larkin" <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message news:7glpj5l1a7i5nm45bsp5gfhc016e3kjgo8(a)4ax.com... > On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 09:10:22 -0700, Don Lancaster <don(a)tinaja.com> > wrote: > >>John Larkin wrote: >>> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 14:01:44 -0000, "markp" <map.nospam(a)f2s.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote in message >>>> news:ROudnXLvg9-Tm6HWnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d(a)earthlink.com... >>>>> When I was in school components fit on solderless breadboards and we >>>>> made >>>>> circuits using breadboards, power supplies, meters and oscilloscopes. >>>>> Many of today's components don't appear to be breadboard friendly, so >>>>> how >>>>> is it done today? >>>>> >>>>> Is circuit design software and simulation good enough to go straight >>>>> to a >>>>> PC board? Or do you use surface mount to breadboard adapters? Do you >>>>> still use a soldering Iron to solder or paste solder and an oven? >>>>> >>>>> I'm wanting to tinker with some circuits but some chips I'm interested >>>>> in >>>>> only comes in MSOP or other packages that look intimidating to attempt >>>>> to >>>>> solder. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks! >>>>> >>>>> RogerN >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I tend to design a PCB with CAD software then have prototype PCBs made. >>>> There are several companies out there who do 'pooling', i.e. they >>>> amalgamate >>>> many designs onto one PCB, that way you end up only paying a small >>>> fraction >>>> of the tooling cost of the PCB. Some companies can handle 6 layer >>>> boards >>>> with this process. Example in the UK is PCB Snap from Spirit Circuits >>>> (www.spiritcircuits.com). >>>> >>>> This can be quite cost effectve for producing protptypes that are as >>>> close >>>> to the final product as practicable. >>> >>> Why not go for the real thing, first time? If you get it right, you >>> can sell it. >>> >>> John >>> >> >>It is NEVER right the first time. > > We sell about 80% of our rev A boards, with no prototypes. Assuming > the first unit won't work is self-fulfilling, and a good way to make > sure the third iteration won't work either. > > And my cabin automation hardware worked absolutely unaltered the first > time! > > John > I have to say most of my designs usually work with only a slight modification (sometimes none, sometimes component changes, sometimes the odd wire or track cut). Sometimes though it's easy to assume something works when actually it's close to the edge, but you still need to thoroughly examine the product anyway. We all know that sometimes there are real pressures to ship, in some respects a board that doesn't work first time can be beneficial in focusing attention to smaller details. Of course the design has to be tested thoroughly anyway, what I'm saying is it can speed that process up if the thing doesn't work first time and you've got real pressure to get it out the door :) Mark.
From: Joel Koltner on 31 Dec 2009 12:32
"Joerg" <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:7q2g2rF86cU1(a)mid.individual.net... > In the professional world (product design) we go straight from simulation to > schematic -> layout -> board fab -> assembly. No breadboards. Oh come on, even you occasionally dead bug-up (or otherwise prototype) a tricky circuit that's part of a bigger product, right? John Larkin does it plenty! :-) |