Memory Question
in [Windows 98]
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From: Gary S. Terhune on 15 Dec 2006 03:25 Only thing I can think of is that many Windows apps are set up to remain in memory even after they are closed, the presumption being that you will again open that app soon. What happens after you close everything and leave it alone for half an hour? I'm not really the one to explain those other things, but I'm sure MEB or someone else with good advice on those topics will happen by soon. -- Gary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm "Roll Your Own Free Security Suite" http://wiki.castlecops.com/Roll_your_own_Free_Security_Suite Daave wrote: > Gary S. Terhune wrote: > >> The standard way to judge whether you need more RAM is to use System >> Monitor's "Swap file in use" monitoring. System Monitor is a System >> Tool and usually needs to be installed via Add/Remove Programs => >> Windows Components tab. If "swap file in use" consistently or even >> just often measures more than 10 - 20 MB, then you could make good >> use of more RAM. Make sure to give your system a good workout while >> monitoring, leaving stuff open while you try other things, playiing a >> video or listening to quality music while scrolling through a folder >> full of images, or editing images with something like IrfanView, >> creating an album of photos, etc. > > Thanks for the tip, Gary. > > I got that Swap File in Use up to around 50 MB by the way! > > But after I close all the memory-intensive apps, and the system > returns to normal (not sputtering), why doesn't this value go back > down? > > Also, can you explain the Processor Usage and Unused Physical Memory > charts?
From: "MEB" meb on 15 Dec 2006 04:20 "Gary S. Terhune" <grystnews(a)mvps.org> wrote in message news:uvCWkKCIHHA.3312(a)TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl... | Only thing I can think of is that many Windows apps are set up to remain in | memory even after they are closed, the presumption being that you will again | open that app soon. What happens after you close everything and leave it | alone for half an hour? | | I'm not really the one to explain those other things, but I'm sure MEB or | someone else with good advice on those topics will happen by soon. | | -- | | Gary S. Terhune | MS-MVP Shell/User | http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm | http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm | "Roll Your Own Free Security Suite" | http://wiki.castlecops.com/Roll_your_own_Free_Security_Suite Hey, a new link!! What prompted that? And why is that you and I are up at this time.... Daave your's is inline with your questions. | | Daave wrote: | > Gary S. Terhune wrote: | > | >> The standard way to judge whether you need more RAM is to use System | >> Monitor's "Swap file in use" monitoring. System Monitor is a System | >> Tool and usually needs to be installed via Add/Remove Programs => | >> Windows Components tab. If "swap file in use" consistently or even | >> just often measures more than 10 - 20 MB, then you could make good | >> use of more RAM. Make sure to give your system a good workout while | >> monitoring, leaving stuff open while you try other things, playiing a | >> video or listening to quality music while scrolling through a folder | >> full of images, or editing images with something like IrfanView, | >> creating an album of photos, etc. | > | > Thanks for the tip, Gary. | > | > I got that Swap File in Use up to around 50 MB by the way! First, what did you do, just the memory upgrade, or the processor and memory? 256megs memory or what? 50megs used, gees, that's reasonable. What was the "available resources" showing. | > | > But after I close all the memory-intensive apps, and the system | > returns to normal (not sputtering), why doesn't this value go back | > down? Gary put the simple explanation on it. Not much to add really but dlls held for potential use, system hooks waiting to be applied, and other sundry items thought necessary by some programmer somewhere. And as Gary stated, generally the resources will be returned to the "pool" after a time if they're not used. | > | > Also, can you explain the Processor Usage and Unused Physical Memory | > charts? | | Simple explanation: Hmm, the processor usage should wildly fluctuate as you open and close programs, or they idle waiting for something to do. Can be as high as 100% usage for a few microsecs (at today's processor speeds likely nano), but should drop to idle (a small percentage) or a steady usage if your not doing much of anything [like crunching data bases and numbers in the background]. Your scheduled programs (anti-v updaters and such) may cause minor fluctuations. Unused physical memory: this fluctuates as programs use memory and Windows allocates the resources. It is effected by in use and prior use of programs for the same reason the swap file is. Memory MAY stay in use even though the program closes, for the same reasons as the swap file. Windows attempts to keep a reserve of physical memory available by moving much of the calling program's memory calls out to the swap file unless physical memory is available, OR may temporarily swap out some of its already allocated memory requirements to the swap file to free physical memory for some program's use. Each program attempts to claim its portion of the base physical memory, but Windows allocates what it will, and shells out much under "virtual memory". As for base usage of memory: Windows starts up with a certain amount of memory already in use for its base system, and may free up some of that memory if nothing is used for a time period or the memory "hooks" are not used. For a more technical discussion start a new thread specifically related to whatever monitoring function you wished reviewed. There are several in this group who will likely give you a detailed explanation. -- MEB http://peoplescounsel.orgfree.com/ BLOG http://peoplescounsel.spaces.live.com/ Public Notice or the "real world" "Most people, sometime in their lives, stumble across truth. Most jump up, brush themselves off, and hurry on about their business as if nothing had happen." Winston Churchill Or to put it another way: Morpheus can offer you the two pills; but only you can choose whether you take the red pill or the blue one. _______________
From: Gary S. Terhune on 15 Dec 2006 10:33 I got turned onto that link by Pa Bear. Decided it needed a good home, <s>. I'm always up at "this time". Usually until 3am or so, PST/PDT. DOesn't mean I'm always online, though that's frequently the case. It's when I'm up past 4 that you have to start worrying. Been a few of those this week. -- Gary S. Terhune MS-MVP Shell/User http://grystmill.com/articles/cleanboot.htm http://grystmill.com/articles/security.htm "Roll Your Own Free Security Suite" http://wiki.castlecops.com/Roll_your_own_Free_Security_Suite MEB wrote: > Hey, a new link!! What prompted that? > > And why is that you and I are up at this time....
From: Daave on 15 Dec 2006 11:14 MEB wrote: >> Daave wrote: >>> Gary S. Terhune wrote: >>> >>>> The standard way to judge whether you need more RAM is to use >>>> System Monitor's "Swap file in use" monitoring. System Monitor is >>>> a System Tool and usually needs to be installed via Add/Remove >>>> Programs => Windows Components tab. If "swap file in use" >>>> consistently or even just often measures more than 10 - 20 MB, >>>> then you could make good >>>> use of more RAM. Make sure to give your system a good workout while >>>> monitoring, leaving stuff open while you try other things, >>>> playiing a video or listening to quality music while scrolling >>>> through a folder full of images, or editing images with something >>>> like IrfanView, creating an album of photos, etc. >>> >>> Thanks for the tip, Gary. >>> >>> I got that Swap File in Use up to around 50 MB by the way! > > First, what did you do, just the memory upgrade, or the processor and > memory? > 256megs memory or what? Actually, I haven't even purchased the RAM yet! But I do plan on ordering two 128 MB sticks later on today from Comtread to bring my system up to 384 MB. Before I experimented by using several memory-intensive applications all at once, the swapfiles in use figure was closer to 15 MB. But when I went whole hog (which I normally don't do), it shot way up past 50 MB. Also, my system can handle *certain* streaming video. For example, http://www.learner.org/resources/series72.html presents no problems whatsoever. But streaming video from http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3095083752167460110&q="infinite+thinking+machine" (which must be in significantly higher fidelity) makes my system choke. I'm guessing that more RAM will help, but as I mentioned earlier, the mobo/processor would still be less than optimal--which is why I'm considering upgrading to a faster Pentium III down the road. > 50megs used, gees, that's reasonable. You think? I thought Gary said that 10-20 warrants more RAM. And once my swapfile in use got up past 30 MB, the system really started to sputter! > What was the "available resources" showing. I checked that a number of times. Under regular use, it was 53%. But each time I challenged my system, it dropped a few points. As early as 51%, I noticed significant slowing. By the time it got down to 46%, it was like it was on life support! BTW, I checked available resources by clicking on the Performance tab of System Properties. Is there a better way? Also, I was using Process Explorer. I like how it shows percentage of CPU usage for each process. Is there a similar utility that shows actual RAM usage? > Hmm, the processor usage should wildly fluctuate as you open and > close programs, or they idle waiting for something to do. > Can be as high as 100% usage for a few microsecs (at today's processor > speeds likely nano), but should drop to idle (a small percentage) or a > steady usage if your not doing much of anything [like crunching data > bases and numbers in the background]. Your scheduled programs (anti-v > updaters and such) may cause minor fluctuations. Interesting. I notice that it's at 100% more often than not. And during my experiment, it was 100% the entire time. Some time next week, I'll start a new thread addressing how things are with 384 MB RAM. Thanks, MEB (and Gary) for taking time to explain all this stuff to me! -- Dave
From: lb on 15 Dec 2006 12:50
Daave wrote: > MEB wrote: > > >> Daave wrote: > >>> Gary S. Terhune wrote: > >>> > >>>> The standard way to judge whether you need more RAM is to use > >>>> System Monitor's "Swap file in use" monitoring. System Monitor is > >>>> a System Tool and usually needs to be installed via Add/Remove > >>>> Programs => Windows Components tab. If "swap file in use" > >>>> consistently or even just often measures more than 10 - 20 MB, > >>>> then you could make good > >>>> use of more RAM. Make sure to give your system a good workout while > >>>> monitoring, leaving stuff open while you try other things, > >>>> playiing a video or listening to quality music while scrolling > >>>> through a folder full of images, or editing images with something > >>>> like IrfanView, creating an album of photos, etc. > >>> > >>> Thanks for the tip, Gary. > >>> > >>> I got that Swap File in Use up to around 50 MB by the way! > > > > First, what did you do, just the memory upgrade, or the processor and > > memory? > > 256megs memory or what? > > Actually, I haven't even purchased the RAM yet! But I do plan on > ordering two 128 MB sticks later on today from Comtread to bring my > system up to 384 MB. > > Before I experimented by using several memory-intensive applications all > at once, the swapfiles in use figure was closer to 15 MB. But when I > went whole hog (which I normally don't do), it shot way up past 50 MB. > > Also, my system can handle *certain* streaming video. For example, > http://www.learner.org/resources/series72.html presents no problems > whatsoever. But streaming video from > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3095083752167460110&q="infinite+thinking+machine" > (which must be in significantly higher fidelity) makes my system choke. > I'm guessing that more RAM will help, but as I mentioned earlier, the > mobo/processor would still be less than optimal--which is why I'm > considering upgrading to a faster Pentium III down the road. > > > 50megs used, gees, that's reasonable. > > You think? I thought Gary said that 10-20 warrants more RAM. And once my > swapfile in use got up past 30 MB, the system really started to sputter! > > > What was the "available resources" showing. > > I checked that a number of times. Under regular use, it was 53%. But > each time I challenged my system, it dropped a few points. As early as > 51%, I noticed significant slowing. By the time it got down to 46%, it > was like it was on life support! > > BTW, I checked available resources by clicking on the Performance tab of > System Properties. Is there a better way? > > Also, I was using Process Explorer. I like how it shows percentage of > CPU usage for each process. Is there a similar utility that shows actual > RAM usage? > > > Hmm, the processor usage should wildly fluctuate as you open and > > close programs, or they idle waiting for something to do. > > Can be as high as 100% usage for a few microsecs (at today's processor > > speeds likely nano), but should drop to idle (a small percentage) or a > > steady usage if your not doing much of anything [like crunching data > > bases and numbers in the background]. Your scheduled programs (anti-v > > updaters and such) may cause minor fluctuations. > > Interesting. I notice that it's at 100% more often than not. And during > my experiment, it was 100% the entire time. > > Some time next week, I'll start a new thread addressing how things are > with 384 MB RAM. > > Thanks, MEB (and Gary) for taking time to explain all this stuff to me! > > -- > Dave Do not think you will see much improvement in streaming video performance by adding ram. I only have 256 and I can play that video you have trouble with with no problems. Go ahead and get the ram, as it never hurts to have extra ram. I probably would not go higher than the 384 you are condidering. Your streaming video bottlenecks are either your internet connection, your cpu or your video card or any combination of the three. I would first start by trying to tweak your connection. Start here and run their test: http://www.dslreports.com/tweaks They will reccomend a tweaking program. If your efficiency is in the high 90's then that is good. You can test your bandwidth to see if you are getting what you are paying for here, I like the Speakeasy tests: http://home.cfl.rr.com/eaa/Bandwidth.htm If that is good then your cpu or video card may be bottlenecking the feed. |