What is the best way to process this list
in [Lisp]
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From: Ron Garret on 8 Jan 2010 20:02 In article <d5a9db88-86dd-43ef-9e98-32a1c33ca62f(a)v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>, Duane Rettig <duane(a)franz.com> wrote: > > Whether X is "an expert" or > > "with good taste" or "cool" or whatever, it allows one to apply the > > no-true-scotsman fallacy to any criticism of the language: all negative > > views can be dismissed because the critic is obviously not an expert/has > > bad taste/not cool, etc. > > This would be true if your general comment had been "CL is only a > language for everyone with X". Are you saying you get the impression > that people are saying that CL is only a language for experts? I had the impression that a substantial segment of the Lisp community subscribed to that view at one time. Whether that is still true today I do not know. rg
From: Ron Garret on 8 Jan 2010 20:03 In article <87iqbcqglj.fsf(a)hubble.informatimago.com>, pjb(a)informatimago.com (Pascal J. Bourguignon) wrote: > Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon(a)flownet.com> writes: > > > In article <7qp2c5Fej0U1(a)mid.individual.net>, > > Pascal Costanza <pc(a)p-cos.net> wrote: > > > >> On 08/01/2010 09:46, Ron Garret wrote: > >> > Even the practical camp has a somewhat schizophrenic attitude towards > >> > macros. On the one hand, macros are often touted as the cool feature > >> > that makes Lisp superior to other languages. On the other hand, > >> > reactions to specific macros are often strongly negative. "Leave macro > >> > writing to the experts" is an often-heard refrain, and even macros > >> > written by experts are more often than not very badly received (e.g. > >> > John Foderaro's IF* macro, or more recently, Pascal Costanza's filtered > >> > functions). The LOOP macro has a dedicated band of detractors who > >> > regularly urge people not to use it because it isn't "Lispy" enough > >> > (whatever that could possibly mean). The *idea* of macros seems to be > >> > much more enthusiastically embraced than actual macros. > >> > >> I don't think that's correct. In the case of filtered functions, the > >> reactions were mostly positive (to my surprise, I didn't expect that > >> much positive feedback). Only one person was especially aggressive in > >> voicing his negative opinion about them. If I understand correctly, that > >> was the same with IF*. You can easily get wrong impressions when > >> listening only to the loudest voices. > > > > Could be. > > > >> LOOP has a lot of detractors, but also a lot of fans. If that is in any > >> way representative, at the first European Lisp Workshop (in Oslo in > >> 2004), there were 40 participants, and the overwhelming majority stated > >> to use LOOP for iterative tasks (to everybody's surprise). > > > > I heard a story once about how it was common knowledge that everyone in > > California was crazy. But if you actually go to California they will > > tell you that no, it's not all of California that's crazy, it's the > > folks in *southern* California that are crazy. And if you go to > > southern California they will tell you, no, it's not all of southern > > California, it's just LA. And if you go to LA they will tell you it's > > not LA, it's Hollywood. And if you go to Hollywood they'll tell you > > it's not all of Hollywood, it's just this one neighborhood. And if you > > go to that neighborhood they'll tell you it's not the whole > > neighborhood, it's just this one crazy guy at the end of the block. > > > > I had always thought this story was a joke, but maybe that's exactly > > what is happening here. > > Robert A. Heinlein wrote it in 1940 in "And He Built a Crooked House", > which starts with: > > Americans are considered crazy anywhere in the world. > > They will usually concede a basis for the accusation but point to > California as the focus of the infection. Californians stoutly > maintain that their bad reputation is derived solely from the acts > of the inhabitants of Los Angeles County. Angelenos will, when > pressed, admit the charge but explain hastily, It's Hollywood. > It's not our fault we didn't ask for it; Hollywood just grew. > > The people in Hollywood don't care; they glory in it. If you are > interested, they will drive you up Laurel Canyon where we keep > the violent cases. The Canyonites the brown-legged women, the > trunks-clad men constantly busy building and rebuilding their > slap-happy unfinished houses regard with faint contempt the dull > creatures who live down in the flats, and treasure in their hearts > the secret knowledge that they, and only they, know how to live. > > Lookout Mountain Avenue is the name of a side canyon which twists > up from Laurel Canyon. The other Canyonites don't like to have it > mentioned; after all, one must draw the line somewhere! > > High up on Lookout Mountain at number 8775, across the street from > the Hermit the original Hermit of Hollywood lived Quintus Teal, > graduate architect. > > Even the architecture of southern California is different. Hot > dogs are sold from a structure build like and designated The Pup. > Ice cream cones come from a giant stucco ice cream cone, and neon > proclaims Get the Chili Bowl Habit! from the roofs of buildings > which are indisputably chili bowls. Gasoline, oil, and free road > maps are dispensed beneath the wings of tri-motored transport > planes, while the certified rest rooms, inspected hourly for your > comfort, are located in the cabin of the plane itself. These > things may surprise, or amuse, the tourist, but the local > residents, who walk bareheaded in the famous California noonday > sun, take them as a matter of course. > > Quintus Teal regarded the efforts of his colleagues in > architecture as faint-hearted, fumbling and timid. Yeah, that's the one. :-) rg
From: Kenneth Tilton on 8 Jan 2010 20:05 Duane Rettig wrote: >> I believe Kenny Tilton subscribes to it. > > Can anybody know what Kenny subscribes to? Yes. My friends say the key is not to listen to me. Takes a while to figure that out, though. I don't have many friends, more bar fights. > Kenny, do you know? Yes, quite precisely. It just changes day to day. That's the key to always being right and always having been recently wrong. Lisp is tremendously approachable, and like some wonderful recreational sports is fun to do right away and becomes more fun the more one learns. No expertise required. All I would say for expertise is that the better one can see the abstract the more one gets out of Lisp (since it will let one engineer around abstractions found). But everyone will, to borrow a phrase, be all they can be with Lisp, and maybe more since the language itself draws one upwards. This thread is daft for worrying about which bits of the CLHS should be taught or used or whatever. Lisp is just a big toolbox, period, end of discussion. Use it all, using each bit when it should be used and not that other bit. As for order of presentation, CLOS is to data what a DC-10 is to flight. Let's make sure folks know every lightweight alternative before taxiing out that bloated beast. ken ps. Ron is mistaking my frequent joking about Lisp deliberately having Emacs/Slime for an IDE and about libraries being a pain to find/install as a way of keeping out the riffraff as seriously elitist. k -- http://www.stuckonalgebra.com "The best Algebra tutorial program I have seen... in a class by itself." Macworld
From: Madhu on 8 Jan 2010 21:04 * Ron Garret <rNOSPAMon-442AE5.11064408012010(a)news.albasani.net> : Wrote on Fri, 08 Jan 2010 11:07:14 -0800: |> Insults like "idiot" are rude, when the target is indeed a retard. | ROTFLMFAO! You dont make a point, So I'll go out on a limb and assume your amusement indicates you have not understood my point at all. First off it is entirely alien to my nature to insult anyone gratuituously, or for the sake of amusement, or just to be rude. The only reason for me insulting anyone should be to bring to attention a correctible defect on the part of the insultee. Now If I were to call you into account for your response and say "You are a lamer" --- I am characterizing an aspect of your behaviour that you had control over, STILL you chose to behave in a way I consider less than appropriate. The idea behind my "insult" is you should have known better --- you have two legs but behave like a one legged man. Now use both legs! OTOH if you have only one leg, and I call you "a lamer", it may be literally accurate. Intended as an insult intended to correct it is teribly rude, because its not like you can help it. I cannot expect you to use both legs when you have only one. BTW The only reason I resorted to insults to Matt-the-surnameless was that I thought he was trolling for it (he wanted me to respond to his insults with insults in the last thread he was defending another of your indefensible positions), and I thought if I gave him what he wanted he would shut up. -- Madhu
From: Ron Garret on 8 Jan 2010 21:08
In article <4b47d654$0$22541$607ed4bc(a)cv.net>, Kenneth Tilton <kentilton(a)gmail.com> wrote: > ps. Ron is mistaking my frequent joking about Lisp deliberately having > Emacs/Slime for an IDE and about libraries being a pain to find/install > as a way of keeping out the riffraff as seriously elitist. k It is often hard for me to tell when you are joking and when you are not. Particularly when you say things like: > My friends say the key is not to listen to me. rg |