Why Pendulum as a clock do not shows, what General Theory of Relativity predicts?
in [Relativity]
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From: Enes on 29 Nov 2009 04:32 On 29 Lis, 01:10, Uncle Al <Uncle...(a)hate.spam.net> wrote: > Enes wrote: > > > On 28 Lis, 20:54, Sam Wormley <sworml...(a)mchsi.com> wrote: > > > Enes wrote: > > > > > Which clock is good to measure time? > > > > Does it depends of time only and not of gravity? > > > > Use a clock (an accurate clock) where orientation does not > > > matter. Space based atomic clocks come to mind. > > > > See: Relativistic Effects on Satellite Clocks > > > http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.... > > > Let it be, that atomic clock not depends of gravity, measures time > > only. > > > How can it measures different time in different gravity? > > <http://relativity.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrr-2003-1&page=node5.....> > <http://unusedcycles.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/physics-of-gps-relativis...> > Relativistic effects on orbital clocks > > -- > Uncle Alhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/ > (Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz4.htm I have heared, that there is no urgency to use relativistic effects which gives only difference ca.1cm interval. Probably They make simple corrections using speed of e-m waves and other speeds - to make time and informations on Earth.
From: Jerry on 29 Nov 2009 05:08 On Nov 29, 3:06 am, Enes <pies_na_teo...(a)vp.pl> wrote: > On 29 Lis, 01:37, Jerry <Cephalobus_alie...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 28, 2:05 am, Enes <pies_na_teo...(a)vp.pl> wrote: > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum > > > > You can see and hear as it works: > > > tik...tak, tik..tak, tik..tak (in polish !) > > > > When there is less gravitation: > > > tiiiiik..........taaak, tiiiiik..........taaak.... > > > > The time is quite different, than GR predicts. > > > Why? > > > Pendulum clocks have a Newtonian dependence on the strength of > > gravity which is vastly greater in magnitude than the magnitude > > of the relativistic time dilation effect. > > > Newtonian mechanics tells us that the frequency of a pendulum is > > directly proportional to the square root of the strength of > > gravity, and inversely proportional to the square root of its > > length. The effects of relativistic time dilation are far, far > > tinier than this. > > > You can no more measure the effects of relativistic time dilation > > using a pendulum clock, than you can measure the weight of a > > feather using a truck scale. > > > To detect gravitational time dilation, you need to use a precise > > and accurate clock whose frequency has no Newtonian dependence on > > the strength of gravity. > > > Jerry > > Jerry, > I do not want measure time dilation using pendulum clock, but try to > show, that it runs quite vice versa using GR predictions. > > Read, try to understad and count:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation > " Clocks which are far from massive bodies (or at higher gravitational > potentials) run faster, and clocks close to > massive bodies (or at lower gravitational potentials) run > slower." > > It is not true, becouse: > Pendulum clocks which are far from masisive bodies run slower, > and pendulum clocks close to massive bodies run faster." > > Do you understand now? The Wiki statement assumes a certain level of common sense understanding. Certain assumptions have been left unstated because any knowledgeable person should be able to figure them out. For your purposes, you should reread the Wiki statement as follows: ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Clocks whose operation do not fundamentally depend on the strength of gravity and whose timing components are immune from mechanical distortion due to gravity, which are far from massive bodies (or at higher gravitational potentials) run faster, and such clocks close to massive bodies (or at lower gravitational potentials) run slower. It should be noted that pendulum clocks are clocks whose operation depends fundamentally on the strength of gravity. Balance-wheel watches have timing components that may warp under the influence of gravity. Indeed, it is well-known that even without any change in the local strength of gravity, a balance-wheel watch lying on its side keeps different time than the same watch lying on its back. The GR prediction applies to ideal clocks and to clocks that are 'close enough' to ideal in regards to their immunity to mechanical distortion due to gravity and to their lack of any fundamental dependence on gravity for their operation. Atomic clocks are examples of clocks that are 'close enough' to ideal to be used for detection of GR effects under most ordinary conditions. However, it should be noted that under extreme conditions, such as on the surface of a neutron star, an atomic clock will squash into a thin sheet, and its readings may not agree with GR predictions for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with any failure of GR. Likewise, if an atomic clock is transported to the surface of the Sun and melts, its output may become undecipherable, again for reasons that have nothing to do with any failure of GR." ----------------------------------------------------------------- Do you understand? Jerry
From: Enes on 29 Nov 2009 05:21 On 29 Lis, 11:08, Jerry <Cephalobus_alie...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > On Nov 29, 3:06 am, Enes <pies_na_teo...(a)vp.pl> wrote: > > > > > On 29 Lis, 01:37, Jerry <Cephalobus_alie...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > On Nov 28, 2:05 am, Enes <pies_na_teo...(a)vp.pl> wrote: > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum > > > > > You can see and hear as it works: > > > > tik...tak, tik..tak, tik..tak (in polish !) > > > > > When there is less gravitation: > > > > tiiiiik..........taaak, tiiiiik..........taaak.... > > > > > The time is quite different, than GR predicts. > > > > Why? > > > > Pendulum clocks have a Newtonian dependence on the strength of > > > gravity which is vastly greater in magnitude than the magnitude > > > of the relativistic time dilation effect. > > > > Newtonian mechanics tells us that the frequency of a pendulum is > > > directly proportional to the square root of the strength of > > > gravity, and inversely proportional to the square root of its > > > length. The effects of relativistic time dilation are far, far > > > tinier than this. > > > > You can no more measure the effects of relativistic time dilation > > > using a pendulum clock, than you can measure the weight of a > > > feather using a truck scale. > > > > To detect gravitational time dilation, you need to use a precise > > > and accurate clock whose frequency has no Newtonian dependence on > > > the strength of gravity. > > > > Jerry > > > Jerry, > > I do not want measure time dilation using pendulum clock, but try to > > show, that it runs quite vice versa using GR predictions. > > > Read, try to understad and count:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation > > " Clocks which are far from massive bodies (or at higher gravitational > > potentials) run faster, and clocks close to > > massive bodies (or at lower gravitational potentials) run > > slower." > > > It is not true, becouse: > > Pendulum clocks which are far from masisive bodies run slower, > > and pendulum clocks close to massive bodies run faster." > > > Do you understand now? > > The Wiki statement assumes a certain level of common sense > understanding. Certain assumptions have been left unstated > because any knowledgeable person should be able to figure them > out. > > For your purposes, you should reread the Wiki statement as > follows: > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > "Clocks whose operation do not fundamentally depend on the > strength of gravity and whose timing components are immune from > mechanical distortion due to gravity, which are far from massive > bodies (or at higher gravitational potentials) run faster, and > such clocks close to massive bodies (or at lower gravitational > potentials) run slower. It should be noted that pendulum clocks > are clocks whose operation depends fundamentally on the strength > of gravity. Balance-wheel watches have timing components that may > warp under the influence of gravity. Indeed, it is well-known > that even without any change in the local strength of gravity, a > balance-wheel watch lying on its side keeps different time than > the same watch lying on its back. The GR prediction applies to > ideal clocks and to clocks that are 'close enough' to ideal in > regards to their immunity to mechanical distortion due to gravity > and to their lack of any fundamental dependence on gravity for > their operation. Atomic clocks are examples of clocks that are > 'close enough' to ideal to be used for detection of GR effects > under most ordinary conditions. However, it should be noted that > under extreme conditions, such as on the surface of a neutron > star, an atomic clock will squash into a thin sheet, and its > readings may not agree with GR predictions for reasons that have > nothing whatsoever to do with any failure of GR. Likewise, if an > atomic clock is transported to the surface of the Sun and melts, > its output may become undecipherable, again for reasons that have > nothing to do with any failure of GR." > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Do you understand? > > Jerry Ok., if you say. But we have to add next principle (third) to Special Theory of relativity: "Don't use a pendulum clock to measure time" Are you agree?
From: Jerry on 29 Nov 2009 05:31 On Nov 29, 4:21 am, Enes <pies_na_teo...(a)vp.pl> wrote: > On 29 Lis, 11:08, Jerry <Cephalobus_alie...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Nov 29, 3:06 am, Enes <pies_na_teo...(a)vp.pl> wrote: > > > > On 29 Lis, 01:37, Jerry <Cephalobus_alie...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > > > > > On Nov 28, 2:05 am, Enes <pies_na_teo...(a)vp.pl> wrote: > > > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum > > > > > > You can see and hear as it works: > > > > > tik...tak, tik..tak, tik..tak (in polish !) > > > > > > When there is less gravitation: > > > > > tiiiiik..........taaak, tiiiiik..........taaak.... > > > > > > The time is quite different, than GR predicts. > > > > > Why? > > > > > Pendulum clocks have a Newtonian dependence on the strength of > > > > gravity which is vastly greater in magnitude than the magnitude > > > > of the relativistic time dilation effect. > > > > > Newtonian mechanics tells us that the frequency of a pendulum is > > > > directly proportional to the square root of the strength of > > > > gravity, and inversely proportional to the square root of its > > > > length. The effects of relativistic time dilation are far, far > > > > tinier than this. > > > > > You can no more measure the effects of relativistic time dilation > > > > using a pendulum clock, than you can measure the weight of a > > > > feather using a truck scale. > > > > > To detect gravitational time dilation, you need to use a precise > > > > and accurate clock whose frequency has no Newtonian dependence on > > > > the strength of gravity. > > > > > Jerry > > > > Jerry, > > > I do not want measure time dilation using pendulum clock, but try to > > > show, that it runs quite vice versa using GR predictions. > > > > Read, try to understad and count:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation > > > " Clocks which are far from massive bodies (or at higher gravitational > > > potentials) run faster, and clocks close to > > > massive bodies (or at lower gravitational potentials) run > > > slower." > > > > It is not true, becouse: > > > Pendulum clocks which are far from masisive bodies run slower, > > > and pendulum clocks close to massive bodies run faster." > > > > Do you understand now? > > > The Wiki statement assumes a certain level of common sense > > understanding. Certain assumptions have been left unstated > > because any knowledgeable person should be able to figure them > > out. > > > For your purposes, you should reread the Wiki statement as > > follows: > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Clocks whose operation do not fundamentally depend on the > > strength of gravity and whose timing components are immune from > > mechanical distortion due to gravity, which are far from massive > > bodies (or at higher gravitational potentials) run faster, and > > such clocks close to massive bodies (or at lower gravitational > > potentials) run slower. It should be noted that pendulum clocks > > are clocks whose operation depends fundamentally on the strength > > of gravity. Balance-wheel watches have timing components that may > > warp under the influence of gravity. Indeed, it is well-known > > that even without any change in the local strength of gravity, a > > balance-wheel watch lying on its side keeps different time than > > the same watch lying on its back. The GR prediction applies to > > ideal clocks and to clocks that are 'close enough' to ideal in > > regards to their immunity to mechanical distortion due to gravity > > and to their lack of any fundamental dependence on gravity for > > their operation. Atomic clocks are examples of clocks that are > > 'close enough' to ideal to be used for detection of GR effects > > under most ordinary conditions. However, it should be noted that > > under extreme conditions, such as on the surface of a neutron > > star, an atomic clock will squash into a thin sheet, and its > > readings may not agree with GR predictions for reasons that have > > nothing whatsoever to do with any failure of GR. Likewise, if an > > atomic clock is transported to the surface of the Sun and melts, > > its output may become undecipherable, again for reasons that have > > nothing to do with any failure of GR." > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Do you understand? > > > Jerry > > Ok., if you say. > But we have to add next principle (third) to Special Theory of > relativity: > "Don't use a pendulum clock to measure time" > Are you agree? No. Physical theories are idealized models of reality. The clocks in special relativity are assumed to be perfect clocks. Jerry
From: Enes on 29 Nov 2009 05:47
On 29 Lis, 11:31, Jerry <Cephalobus_alie...(a)comcast.net> wrote: > W dniu 29 listopada, 4:21 am, <pies_na_teo Enes...vp.pl>napisa³: > > > > > > > > > On 29 Lis, 11:08, Jerry <Cephalobus_alie...comcast.net>napisa³: > > >> On Nov 29, 3:06 am, <pies_na_teo Enes...vp.pl>napisa³: > > >>> On 29 Lis, 01:37, Jerry <Cephalobus_alie...comcast.net>napisa³: > > >>>> On Nov 28, 2:05 am, <pies_na_teo Enes...vp.pl>napisa³: > > >>>>>Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum > > >>>>> Mo¿na zobaczyæ i us³yszeæ jak to dzia³a: > >>>>> Tik ... tik tak, .. tak, tik .. tak (w jêzyku polskim) > > >>>>> Gdy jest mniej grawitacji: > >>>>> Tiiiiik .......... taaak, taaak tiiiiik .......... .... > > >>>>> Czas jest zupe³nie inna, ni¿ przewiduje GR. > >>>>> Dlaczego? > > >>>> Zegary wahad³owe maj± Newtona zale¿no¶ci od si³y > >>>> Grawitacji, która jest znacznie wiêksza w skali od wielko¶ci > >>>> Na skutek relatywistycznej dylatacji czasu. > > >>>> Mechaniki Newtona mówi nam, ¿e czêstotliwo¶æ jest wahad³o>>>> Wprost proporcjonalna do pierwiastka kwadratowego z si³y > >>>> Grawitacji i odwrotnie proporcjonalna do pierwiastka kwadratowego z jego > >>>> D³ugo¶ci. Efektów relatywistycznych dylatacji czasu s± daleko, daleko > >>>> Tinier ni¿ to. > > >>>> Nie mo¿na zmierzyæ wp³yw relatywistycznej dylatacji czasu > >>>> Za pomoc± wahad³a zegara, ni¿ mo¿na zmierzyæ masê > >>>> Pióro za pomoc± skali ciê¿arówki. > > >>>> Aby wykryæ grawitacyjnej dylatacji czasu, nale¿y u¿yæ precyzyjnego > >>>> I zegar, którego czêstotliwo¶æ nie ma zale¿no¶ci od Newtona > >>>> Si³y grawitacji. > > >>>> Jerry > > >>> Jerry>>> Nie chcê dylatacji czasu ¶rodka za pomoc± wahad³a zegara, ale spróbuj > >>> Poka¿, ¿e dzia³a zupe³nie odwrotnie za pomoc± prognoz GR. > > >>> Przeczytaj, spróbuj understad i liczyæ:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation > >>> Zegary, które s± dalekie od masowej jednostki (lub wy¿szej grawitacji > >>> Potencja³ów) dzia³aj± szybciej, a zegary w pobli¿u > >>> Ogromne organy (lub na ni¿szych potencja³ów grawitacyjnych), prowadzone > >>> Wolniej. > > >>> Nie jest prawd±, poniewa¿: > >>> Zegary wahad³owe, które s± dalekie od masisive organów dzia³a³ wolniej, > >>> I wahad³a zegarów w pobli¿u masywnych organy dzia³aj± szybciej. > > >>> Czy rozumiesz teraz? > > >> O¶wiadczenie Wiki zak³ada pewien poziom zdrowego rozs±dku > >> Zrozumienia. Niektóre za³o¿enia zosta³y pozostawione bez okre¶lenia w³a¶ciwo¶ci > >> Wiedz±, poniewa¿ ka¿da osoba powinna mieæ mo¿liwo¶æ ich postaæ > >> Obecnie. > > >> Do swoich potrzeb, nale¿y powróæ o¶wiadczenie wiki > >> Nastêpuj±ce zmiany: > > >> ------------------------------------------------ ----------------- > >> Nie "Clocks, których dzia³ania s± ca³kowicie uzale¿nione od > >> Si³a grawitacji i terminy, których elementy s± zwolnione z > >> Mechaniczne zak³ócenia ziemskie, które s± dalekie od masowej > >> Jednostki (lub wy¿szy potencja³ grawitacyjny) dzia³aj± szybciej, a > >> Takie zegary w pobli¿u masywnych jednostki (lub na ni¿szych grawitacyjne > >> Potencja³ów) dzia³a³ wolniej. Nale¿y zauwa¿yæ, ¿e zegary wahad³owe > >> S± zegary, których dzia³anie zale¿y przede wszystkim od si³y>> Grawitacji. Wagi Zegarki silnikowych czê¶ci terminy, które mog± > >> Odkszta³ceñ pod wp³ywem grawitacji. Rzeczywi¶cie, jest dobrze znany > >> ¯e nawet bez zmian w lokalnej si³y ciê¿ko¶ci, > >> Balansu ogl±daæ le¿±cej na boku utrzymuje innym czasie ni¿ > >> Sam zegarek le¿a³ na plecach. GR przepowiednia odnosi siê do > >> Idealna do zegarów i zegarków, które s± "wystarczaj±co blisko" idealnie w > >> Odniesieniu do ich odporno¶æ na uszkodzenia mechaniczne zak³ócenia ziemskie > >> I ich braku podstawowych zale¿no¶ci od ciê¿ko¶ci > >> Ich dzia³ania. Zegary Atomic przyk³ady zegarów, które s± > >> "Wystarczaj±co blisko" idealnie wykorzystywane do wykrywania efektów GR > >> W warunkach najbardziej zwyczajnych. Jednak¿e nale¿y zauwa¿yæ, ¿e > >> W warunkach ekstremalnych, takich jak na powierzchni neutronów > >> Star, zegar atomowy bêdzie squasha w cienkiej blachy, a jej > >> Odczyty mog± nie zgadzaæ siê z przewidywaniami GR z powodów, które > >> W ogóle nic wspólnego z jakimkolwiek uchybieniu GR. Podobnie, je¶li > >> Zegar atomowy jest transportowany na powierzchniê S³oñca i topi siê, > >> Jego produkcja mo¿e staæ siê undecipherable, ponownie z powodów, które > >> Nic wspólnego z jakimkolwiek uchybieniu GR ". > >> ------------------------------------------------ ----------------- > > >> Do you understand? > > >> Jerry > > > Ok. Je¿eli powiesz. > > Ale musimy dodaæ nastêpne zasady (trzeciej) do specjalnego Teoria > > Wzglêdno¶ci: > > "Nie u¿ywaj wahad³a zegara do pomiaru czasu" > > Czy zgadzasz siê? > > No > > Teorie fizyczne s± wyidealizowanych modelach rzeczywisto¶ci. Zegary > szczególnej teorii wzglêdno¶ci z za³o¿enia maj± byæ doskona³e zegary. > > Jerry Ok., then show me kind of a perfect clock and it`s work formula. Measuring time must depend from GR gravity and space. Can You do it? |