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From: mpc755 on 25 Dec 2009 13:27 On Dec 25, 1:00 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >How far has the flash of light traveled to reach you? Has it traveled > >at 'c' from where the source *is* the instant the light reaches you. > > Which frame of reference? I see the light has travelled the distance > ct, where t is the time it has travelled in my frame. > That is where you are incorrect. The light is not traveling with respect to frames of reference. The light is traveling at 'c' with respect to the aether. "In accordance with the principle of relativity we shall certainly have to take for granted that the propagation of light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid, whether the latter is in motion with reference to other bodies or not." - Albert Einstein The above sentence means exactly what it says: "the propagation of light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid". The water is at rest with respect to the embankment. This means the light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the embankment. This means the light travels at w from B to M' and travels at w from B to M. If the aether is at rest with respect to the embankment, the light from lightning strikes at A/A' and B/B' propagates outward at 'c' from A and B, in nature. If the aether is at rest with respect to the embankment, the Observer at M' would see the light at a different frequency from the light from B/B' than the Observer at M' would from the light from A/A' if Einstein's train gedanken was performed in water. And the is because if the aether is at rest with respect to the embankment, the light travels at 'c' from B to M' and travels at 'c' from B to M. > >In Aether Displacement, since light always propagates with the same > >velocity 'c' with respect to the aether, and the source is at rest > >with respect to the aether, yes, the light does travel from where the > >source *is* when the light waves reach you. When determining the speed > >of the light relative to your motion relative to the Earth, your speed > >is your closing speed relative to the light. Since you are moving > >through aether at rest with respect to the source, when the light > >reaches you, the light has traveled from where the source *is* to > >where you *are* with respect to the aether. > > Which is automatically wrong, since measured experiments disagree with > this. Which part of "automatically wrong" don't you understand? > > >That is what is incorrect about Einstein's train gedanken. The light > >does not travel from B to M and from B' to M' at 'c'. The light > >travels from the emission point with respect to the aether and > >propagates with the same velocity 'c' with respect to the aether. The > >Observers have to know their respective states relative to the aether > >in order to determine simultaneity. > > Automatically wrong. > > >If Einstein's train gedanken is performed in water and the Observer at > >M and the Observer at M' do not know their state with respect to the > >water they cannot determine the simultaneity of the lightning strikes. > >"In accordance with the principle of relativity we shall certainly > >have to take for granted that the propagation of light always takes > >place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid, whether the > >latter is in motion with reference to other bodies or not." - Albert > >Einstein > > Now read the rest, where Einstein concludes the light moves at the velocity > W ~= w + v(1-w^2/c^2). For water (w = .75c) we get the velocity > W ~= 0.75c + v(1-((.75c)^2/c^2) ~= 0.75c + v - .5625v or > W ~= 0.75c + .4375v. W is not w+v but about w + .4375v.
From: mpc755 on 25 Dec 2009 16:26 On Dec 25, 1:27 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 25, 1:00 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > wrote: > > > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > >How far has the flash of light traveled to reach you? Has it traveled > > >at 'c' from where the source *is* the instant the light reaches you. > > > Which frame of reference? I see the light has travelled the distance > > ct, where t is the time it has travelled in my frame. > > That is where you are incorrect. The light is not traveling with > respect to frames of reference. The light is traveling at 'c' with > respect to the aether. > In a modified Einstein train gedanken where the water is at rest with respect to the embankment are the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference equal in all respects? > "In accordance with the principle of relativity we shall certainly > have to take for granted that the propagation of light always takes > place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid, whether the > latter is in motion with reference to other bodies or not." - Albert > Einstein > > The above sentence means exactly what it says: "the propagation of > light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the > liquid". > > The water is at rest with respect to the embankment. This means the > light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the > embankment. > > This means the light travels at w from B to M' and travels at w from B > to M. > > If the aether is at rest with respect to the embankment, the light > from lightning strikes at A/A' and B/B' propagates outward at 'c' from > A and B, in nature. > > If the aether is at rest with respect to the embankment, the Observer > at M' would see the light at a different frequency from the light from > B/B' than the Observer at M' would from the light from A/A' if > Einstein's train gedanken was performed in water. And the is because > if the aether is at rest with respect to the embankment, the light > travels at 'c' from B to M' and travels at 'c' from B to M. > > > > > >In Aether Displacement, since light always propagates with the same > > >velocity 'c' with respect to the aether, and the source is at rest > > >with respect to the aether, yes, the light does travel from where the > > >source *is* when the light waves reach you. When determining the speed > > >of the light relative to your motion relative to the Earth, your speed > > >is your closing speed relative to the light. Since you are moving > > >through aether at rest with respect to the source, when the light > > >reaches you, the light has traveled from where the source *is* to > > >where you *are* with respect to the aether. > > > Which is automatically wrong, since measured experiments disagree with > > this. Which part of "automatically wrong" don't you understand? > > > >That is what is incorrect about Einstein's train gedanken. The light > > >does not travel from B to M and from B' to M' at 'c'. The light > > >travels from the emission point with respect to the aether and > > >propagates with the same velocity 'c' with respect to the aether. The > > >Observers have to know their respective states relative to the aether > > >in order to determine simultaneity. > > > Automatically wrong. > > > >If Einstein's train gedanken is performed in water and the Observer at > > >M and the Observer at M' do not know their state with respect to the > > >water they cannot determine the simultaneity of the lightning strikes. > > >"In accordance with the principle of relativity we shall certainly > > >have to take for granted that the propagation of light always takes > > >place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid, whether the > > >latter is in motion with reference to other bodies or not." - Albert > > >Einstein > > > Now read the rest, where Einstein concludes the light moves at the velocity > > W ~= w + v(1-w^2/c^2). For water (w = .75c) we get the velocity > > W ~= 0.75c + v(1-((.75c)^2/c^2) ~= 0.75c + v - .5625v or > > W ~= 0.75c + .4375v. W is not w+v but about w + .4375v.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: paparios on 25 Dec 2009 16:39 On 24 dic, 18:16, glird <gl...(a)aol.com> wrote: > On Dec 22, 3:08 pm, "papar...(a)gmail.com" wrote:>< You should careful read what Paul Draper beautifully explained. Here again is his immaculate reasoning: > > a) Observer M sees TWO SIMULTANEOUS strikes. > b) Observer M' sees TWO NON SIMULTANEOUS strikes. > c) M' measures the distance from himself to the two > scorch marks and notes that those two distances are > the same. > d) M does the same and gets the same result. > e) M' measures the speed of light in both directions > and observes that it is the same. > f) M does the same and gets the same result. > > > Here is what's wrong with his maculate reasoning: > a) Observer M sees TWO strikes SIMULTANEOUSLY. > b) Observer M' sees TWO strikes NON SIMULTANEOUSLY. > c) M', who is moving wrt the embankment and its scotch > marks, measures the distance from himself to the two > marks when he sees the first and then the second flash > and notes that those two distances are NOT the same. Wrong...read again. Strikes at points A/A' leave marks at both the embankment point (A) and the train point A'. So observer M, with his measuring tape can walk through the train and measure the distance to points A' and B' with great precision. So, for sure, given the initial setup of observer M passing by observer M at time t'=t=0, means he will measure the same distance to marks A' and B'. > d) M measures the distance from himself to the two marks > and notes that those two distances are the same. Notice that these measures are to marks A and B on the embankment. Also note that the measuring tape of both observers are exactly equal in physical properties (built from the same batch). > e) M measures the speed of light in both directions and > observes that it is the same. > f) M' does the same and if he doesn't get the same > result he changes the setting of clock B to MAKE it > be the same. (Einstein called clocks esynched by his > postulated method "synchronized".) Wrong. Observer M' uses the very same procedure that observer M uses to measure the speed of light. No adjustment of any sort is necessary. Rest snipped. Miguel Rios
From: Michael Moroney on 26 Dec 2009 01:31 mpc755 <mpc755(a)gmail.com> writes: >On Dec 25, 1:00 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) >wrote: >> mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: >> >How far has the flash of light traveled to reach you? Has it traveled >> >at 'c' from where the source *is* the instant the light reaches you. >> >> Which frame of reference? I see the light has travelled the distance >> ct, where t is the time it has travelled in my frame. >> >That is where you are incorrect. The light is not traveling with >respect to frames of reference. The light is traveling at 'c' with >respect to the aether. Light travels at 'c' with respect to you, me, pink flying elephants, everything. It falls directly out of the math (w = (u+v)/(1+uv/c^2). >"In accordance with the principle of relativity we shall certainly >have to take for granted that the propagation of light always takes >place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid, whether the >latter is in motion with reference to other bodies or not." - Albert >Einstein >The above sentence means exactly what it says: "the propagation of >light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the >liquid". Which is exactly correct, but that is as far as it goes. All it means that in the frame where the liquid is stationary, light always takes place with the velocity w. (w for water = 0.75). It says *nothing* about how it is perceived in other frames, which you would know if you read the *rest of* what Einstein wrote, and quit your frame jumping. >The water is at rest with respect to the embankment. This means the >light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the >embankment. >This means the light travels at w from B to M' No it doesn't. Frame jumping again. If you meant from B to M, it travels at w. If you meant from B' to M', it travels at W = (w+v)/(1+wv/c^2). Anything else is frame jumping. (M sees strikes at A and B. M' sees strikes at A' and B'). All your attempts to mix the primed and unprimed frames are automatically wrong by the definitions set forth in the train gedanken in the first place.
From: mpc755 on 26 Dec 2009 09:00
On Dec 26, 1:31 am, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >On Dec 25, 1:00 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > >wrote: > >> mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >> >How far has the flash of light traveled to reach you? Has it traveled > >> >at 'c' from where the source *is* the instant the light reaches you. > > >> Which frame of reference? I see the light has travelled the distance > >> ct, where t is the time it has travelled in my frame. > > >That is where you are incorrect. The light is not traveling with > >respect to frames of reference. The light is traveling at 'c' with > >respect to the aether. > > Light travels at 'c' with respect to you, me, pink flying elephants, > everything. It falls directly out of the math (w = (u+v)/(1+uv/c^2). > > >"In accordance with the principle of relativity we shall certainly > >have to take for granted that the propagation of light always takes > >place with the same velocity w with respect to the liquid, whether the > >latter is in motion with reference to other bodies or not." - Albert > >Einstein > >The above sentence means exactly what it says: "the propagation of > >light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the > >liquid". > > Which is exactly correct, but that is as far as it goes. All it means > that in the frame where the liquid is stationary, light always takes place > with the velocity w. (w for water = 0.75). It says *nothing* about > how it is perceived in other frames, which you would know if you read > the *rest of* what Einstein wrote, and quit your frame jumping. > > >The water is at rest with respect to the embankment. This means the > >light always takes place with the same velocity w with respect to the > >embankment. > >This means the light travels at w from B to M' > > No it doesn't. Frame jumping again. > > If you meant from B to M, it travels at w. > If you meant from B' to M', it travels at W = (w+v)/(1+wv/c^2). > > Anything else is frame jumping. (M sees strikes at A and B. M' sees > strikes at A' and B'). All your attempts to mix the primed and unprimed > frames are automatically wrong by the definitions set forth in the train > gedanken in the first place. In a modified Einstein train gedanken where the water is at rest with respect to the embankment, are the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of reference equal in all respects? Of course not. If the water the light travels through from the lighting strikes at A/ A' and B/B' is at rest with respect to the embankment, the light waves propagate outward at the same speed in all directions from A and from B, in nature. The light travels at 'w' from B to M' and from B to M. |