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From: Bill Sloman on 14 May 2010 14:29 On May 14, 5:18 pm, dagmargoodb...(a)yahoo.com wrote: > On May 14, 9:51 am, John Larkin > > > > <jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > > On Thu, 13 May 2010 22:16:49 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodb...(a)yahoo.com > > wrote: > > > >On May 13, 5:02 pm,Bill Sloman<bill.slo...(a)ieee.org> wrote: > > >> On May 13, 8:20 pm, dagmargoodb...(a)yahoo.com wrote: > > > >> The argument for progressive taxation is usually put in terms of those > > >> with the broadest shoulders carrying more of the load. > > > >Right. That's how the Little Red Hen got a hold of all the other > > >animals' bread, greedy thing that she was. She had broad shoulders. > > > >> This falls a > > >> long way short of Marx - > > > >Marx was kind of an idiot. > > > >"The average price of wage labor is the minimum wage, i.e., > > > that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely > > > requisite to keep the laborer in bare existence as a laborer." > > > --The Communist Manifesto > > > > See what I mean? > > > Yeah, he wouldn't understand a female plumber making $150K. > > > What created our modern wealth was engineers applying science. > > Yep. They made machines to relieve human toil, to improve the human > condition. > > Evil capitalists. Marx the Moocher should've stopped 'em. Some of the capitalists were quite evil, as Martin Brown has pointed out elsewhere in this thread. Trade unions were one of the mechanisms that reigned in the greedy, evil, short-sighted minority. -- Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
From: John Larkin on 14 May 2010 16:30 On Fri, 14 May 2010 11:08:20 -0700 (PDT), Bill Sloman <bill.sloman(a)ieee.org> wrote: >On May 14, 4:48�pm, John Larkin ><jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> On Fri, 14 May 2010 01:45:16 -0700 (PDT),Bill Sloman >> >> <bill.slo...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >> >On May 13, 10:05�pm, Greegor <greego...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> BS > Do pay attention. The trouble that Greece is >> >> BS > now in will be fixed by Greece. The EU - as >> >> BS > a whole - will under-write Greek borrowing >> >> BS > until that happens. >> >> >> Oh GOODY! � More DEBT! � THAT'LL fix em! � LOL! >> >> >The alternative was to let them go bankrupt, taking down a bunch of >> >Eurpean banks that had lent them money. This is pretty much what >> >happend in 1929, and the relevant politicians know enough history to >> >be aware of this, and didn't fancy going down that route again. >> >> There's a good argument that the government interventions in the '30s >> created a decade-long depression that otherwise would have been a >> year-or-so stock market bust. The "success" of the Roosevelt acts has >> entered our mythology. > >You've peddled this nonsense before. Unemployment in the US was around >25% in the early 1930's, and Roosevelt's New Deal got it down to 9% in >1937, before an unfortunate revival in economic conservatism undid the >good work and pushed it back up to 17%. > >When you last posted on this subject, you ignored the fact that >unemployment got down to 9% at the start of of 1937, which did make >nosense of the story you were trying to sell. Correlation is not causality. It might have got down that low sooner all by itself. Spending money cutting hiking trails and painting murals is nice, but it's not the kind of productivity that hungry people need. John
From: John Larkin on 14 May 2010 16:42 On Fri, 14 May 2010 17:53:22 +0100, Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >On 14/05/2010 16:06, John Larkin wrote: >> On Fri, 14 May 2010 08:31:49 +0100, Martin Brown >> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> Engels saw first hand what greedy industrialists were doing to their >>> workers in the Lancashire cotton industry. Boiler explosions were >>> commonplace up until the Vulcan insurers made a stand and insisted on >>> proper boiler safety inspections. And in cases of tampering with safety >>> relief valves they would not pay out. >>> >[snip] >>> >>> It makes reasonable sense to pay your workers a living wage for the work >>> that they do rather than pay them less than they can sensibly live on. >>> Ford was about the first in the USA to actually do this. >> >> It only makes sense if the money comes from somewhere. If all the >> employers arbitrarily doubled wages, inflation would take it all away > >We are talking here of industrialised manufacture that was possibly two >or more orders of magnitude more productive. All the profits went to the >mill owners and their workers were left to starve on a subsistance level >of pay because it was marginally better than being out of work. That effect was transient. The first mill owners could indeed hire unemployed labor cheap. As other mill owners got into the act, they had to compete for labor whether they were nice people or not. The laborers benefitted on the other side as food, clothing, building materials, all sorts of stuff, got cheaper because productivity and transportation were indeed orders of magnitude improved by new technology. Productivity is the ultimate benevolence. Technology pushes productivity. John
From: John Larkin on 14 May 2010 16:47 On Fri, 14 May 2010 10:40:49 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >John Larkin wrote: >> On Fri, 14 May 2010 09:13:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Martin Brown wrote: >>>> On 14/05/2010 16:25, John Larkin wrote: >>>>> On Fri, 14 May 2010 08:50:11 +0100, Martin Brown >>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A pure sales tax paid only by the non-business end user would be a lot >>>>>> simpler. Allowing businesses not to have to fight with badly paid VAT >>>>>> advisers. I have had some amusing run-ins with them on reclaiming VAT >>>>>> for a charity making disabled access improvements. >>>>> There's nothing wrong or difficult about having businesses pay sales >>>>> tax. We in California pay sales tax on anything we consume, like >>>> I see that as faintly odd. Taxing businesses for buying stuff to help >>>> run their business and new equipment doesn't really make any sense. >>>> >>> Moving the business to Montana and will make that problem go away :-) >>> >>> [...] >> >> Yes, but it would also make my edgier employees go away too. >> > >I dunno, depends on whether they are the outdoors kind or not. Once a SW >guys threw the question into the round: "What if we all packed it up and >moved to Bozeman, Montana?". Some silence. Then one by one the guys >uttered "Yeah", "Cool", "I'd come" and so on. > > >> We could set up a manufacturing company in another state, or just >> subcontract manufacturing and some engineering there. Arizona sounds >> good, just to tweak the local idiots on the Board of Stupidvisors. >> > >Check the tax situation first, all taxes including property taxes, cost >of living, et cetera. AZ may not be the first contender then. Actually, I might move to Nevada. I could buy a bit of land somewhere in the boonies, with a shack on it, for maybe $20K. John
From: John Larkin on 14 May 2010 16:52
On Fri, 14 May 2010 11:29:35 -0700 (PDT), Bill Sloman <bill.sloman(a)ieee.org> wrote: >On May 14, 5:18�pm, dagmargoodb...(a)yahoo.com wrote: >> On May 14, 9:51�am, John Larkin >> >> >> >> <jjlar...(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> > On Thu, 13 May 2010 22:16:49 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodb...(a)yahoo.com >> > wrote: >> >> > >On May 13, 5:02�pm,Bill Sloman<bill.slo...(a)ieee.org> wrote: >> > >> On May 13, 8:20�pm, dagmargoodb...(a)yahoo.com wrote: >> >> > >> The argument for progressive taxation is usually put in terms of those >> > >> with the broadest shoulders carrying more of the load. >> >> > >Right. �That's how the Little Red Hen got a hold of all the other >> > >animals' bread, greedy thing that she was. �She had broad shoulders. >> >> > >> This falls a >> > >> long way short of Marx - >> >> > >Marx was kind of an idiot. >> >> > >"The average price of wage labor is the minimum wage, i.e., >> > > that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely >> > > requisite to keep the laborer in bare existence as a laborer." >> > > � --The Communist Manifesto >> >> > > �See what I mean? >> >> > Yeah, he wouldn't understand a female plumber making $150K. >> >> > What created our modern wealth was engineers applying science. >> >> Yep. �They made machines to relieve human toil, to improve the human >> condition. >> >> Evil capitalists. �Marx the Moocher should've stopped 'em. > >Some of the capitalists were quite evil, as Martin Brown has pointed >out elsewhere in this thread. Trade unions were one of the mechanisms >that reigned in the greedy, evil, short-sighted minority. No. Competition did. John |