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From: TaliesinSoft on 24 Feb 2010 08:50 On 2010-02-23 14:30:34 -0600, dorayme said: [continuing in the discussion of how the Gallery page on the Softpress website displays oddly when one expands the text only, a problem I stated I would take to Softpress] > T, it is good and hopeful of you to do this. But frankly, I would > eat my hat if a webmaster from an organization of any size > responded with anything but nothing or a silly or self-serving > short term commercial response. > > Did not a king try to hold back a tide once? Here's the response I received from Softpress.... ==================== When you zoom a browser page with Zoom Text Only switched on it is a good test to see if a web page will "break" if text expands (which is usually the case with some browsers, and more especially so in Internet Explorer). The usual test is to use Command-+ once to see if there are going to be any problems (and the Gallery page certainly passes this test). However, to create a page where two enlargements or more doesn't break the layout will mean compromising on elegant design as there are many limitations with what can be done without it being a problem with two or more enlargements. The only way you can stop problems of items overlapping when the text in enlarged is to have a very strict column layout - which our web designers probably thought was too restrictive. If this is considered a bug in Freeway, then Apple must be experiencing the same (and they don't use iWeb to design their web sites). Take a look at <http://www.apple.com/mac/> and <http://www.apple.com/iphone/> (both of which break in one enlargement). Maybe also take a look at Microsoft's site at <http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.aspx> with Safari. You can see that this completely breaks in two enlargements (and it has a very conservative design layout). Let's have a look now at Adobe (the world's largest web design application company) - and you'll see that some of their pages break after two enlargements as well - see <http://www.adobe.com/digitalimag/consumer/>. Check out their Dreamweaver page at <http://www.adobe.com/products/dreamweaver/> and then use the "Store" drop-down menu after two enlargements (that looks very broken to me). Also their store page at <http://volumelicensing.adobe.com/store/adbevlus/DisplayHomePage?promoid=DZHMF> after two enlargements. Perhaps Apple, Microsoft and Adobe use "buggy" software to build their sites. If you look at sites which have no problem with expanding text, they are usually very staid layouts which simply expand down very strict columns. All pages with a fluid, less-boxy page layout will display some issues - there are compromises to be made which can help, but ultimately a design which doesn't break after two or more enlargements will still look very strange. ==================== -- James Leo Ryan --- Austin, Texas --- taliesinsoft(a)me.com
From: TaliesinSoft on 24 Feb 2010 11:15 Continuing from my preceding posting in this thread, here is some more from Softpress in regards to the code that Freeway produces.... ==================== I'd presumed that it was probably a non-Freeway user who might be suggesting that Freeway is somehow producing amateurish web sites. Hopefully, you now know that this is not the case. In fact Freeway is capable of doing web sites just as solid as Dreamweaver, GoLive, etc., but there will always be some examples of poor web site creation (and not only with Freeway). Freeway should also output 100% valid code, which isn't the case with many other web design apps, and because it republishes the code each time, the web site code doesn't become bloated with redundant code in the same way as Dreamweaver and GoLive do. HTML dictates what can and can't be done and Freeway's output is as good if not better than the rest. However, there will always be some (particularly more "tecchy" types) who believe that web sites can only be built by those who like to read and write code all day. ==================== -- James Leo Ryan --- Austin, Texas --- taliesinsoft(a)me.com
From: dorayme on 24 Feb 2010 16:21 In article <7ul1k7FnttU1(a)mid.individual.net>, TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft(a)me.com> wrote: > Continuing from my preceding posting in this thread, here is some more > from Softpress in regards to the code that Freeway produces.... > > ==================== > > I'd presumed that it was probably a non-Freeway user who might be > suggesting that Freeway is somehow producing amateurish web sites. They got this wrong. It was never suggested that the software itself was capable of doing this. I was responding to your earlier remark: "As an aside, the Softpress website itself was developed in Freeway and passes he W3C validation with 0 errors" when I said: "Technical errors and validation is one thing, good website making practice is more than this. I suppose it is unfair to blame the software itself for slack design that results in such as: <http://people.aapt.net.au/~miltonreid/justPics/softpress.png>" And went on with something like "But it is noticeable that no one at softpress seems to know enough to make sure a website extolling website making tools avoids elementary mistakes..." I have no idea what you told them except that you seem to think I was describing some fault or bug in Freeway. I was not. I even made you a web page to show the *nothing to do with validity* or *highly unlikely to be any kind of software bug* poor practice. Perhaps you did not understand the issue, it is perhaps a difficult one to appreciate if you are always using so called WSYIWYG software. It goes with the territory of WSYIWYG not to know many important technical details. This is understandable. But what it means is that the software should not only be very good but should come with very good documentation. And if it really came with documentation that a beginner could understand, it would need to be very long indeed and explain the sort of basic issues I have been alluding to. It is no doubt possible to do this but it would require the software maker himself to understand stuff about best practice and what at least is to be avoided and to put the points in terms of his software (rather than HTML/CSS). Gosh! It is so much easier to learn some elementary HTML and CSS. After this, as I have indicated many times, it is not out of the question to use the Freeways and the Dreamweavers to speed and automate your work. -- dorayme
From: dorayme on 24 Feb 2010 16:48 In article <7ukp53F611U2(a)mid.individual.net>, TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft(a)me.com> wrote: > On 2010-02-23 14:30:34 -0600, dorayme said: > > [continuing in the discussion of how the Gallery page on the Softpress > website displays oddly when one expands the text only, a problem I > stated I would take to Softpress] > > > T, it is good and hopeful of you to do this. But frankly, I would > > eat my hat if a webmaster from an organization of any size > > responded with anything but nothing or a silly or self-serving > > short term commercial response. > > > > Did not a king try to hold back a tide once? > > Here's the response I received from Softpress.... > > ==================== > > When you zoom a browser page with Zoom Text Only switched on it is a > good test to see if a web page will "break" if text expands (which is > usually the case with some browsers, and more especially so in Internet > Explorer). The usual test is to use Command-+ once to see if there are > going to be any problems (and the Gallery page certainly passes this > test). > This is a truly pathetic response. It is not even trying, to make just one click of enlargement or ensmallment! If someone falls *just* short of Aryan perfection in their eyesight, let us be really big hearted and provide for them. But, by God, these inferiors better not expect any leniency if they fall too clicks or more in the inferiority stakes. Pathetic. It is the usual practice, yes, they are right. And it is an appalling one. Send this response of mine to them. > However, to create a page where two enlargements or more doesn't break > the layout will mean compromising on elegant design as there are many > limitations with what can be done without it being a problem with two > or more enlargements. The only way you can stop problems of items > overlapping when the text in enlarged is to have a very strict column > layout - which our web designers probably thought was too restrictive. > Simply not true. He only a quarter knows what he is talking about. Even if we talk about columns, they do not have to be specified rigidly. > If this is considered a bug in Freeway, then Apple And here I think this bloke must have been misled by you or thought you were somehow suggesting a bug in the software. It is unlikely to be this. It is just poor practice and his response of pointing at others with the same practice does not absolve anyone. > > If you look at sites which have no problem with expanding text, they > are usually very staid layouts which simply expand down very strict > columns. All pages with a fluid, less-boxy page layout will display > some issues - there are compromises to be made which can help, but > ultimately a design which doesn't break after two or more enlargements > will still look very strange. > Most sites may be very staid looking according to your correspondent? This needs to be pinned down more. Many staid sites break down too. Yes, it is probably true that it *is* harder to make a really nice site that is good for a few clicks of text adjustment either way from the website maker's idea of normal. But that is the way with most things, it is hard to make a really good movie. But it is worth it! -- dorayme
From: TaliesinSoft on 25 Feb 2010 00:38
Regarding my recent exchanges with Softpress regarding Freeway.... I sent the following note to Softpress support on February 23, 2010 12:18:07 AM CST ========== Something is wrong with the Softpress page at <http://www.softpress.com/galleries/> Here's a screenshot.... ========== The screenshot showed the Gallery Page when the text had been enlarged and when the text was overlaying some of the graphics. I received a reply from Katie Wagner of Softpress requesting some details. I sent the following note in response to Katie on February 23, 2010 3:42:05 PM CST ========== Katie, I am viewing the Softpress site with the latest version of Safari on a Mac. Here are two screenshots taken of the page at <http://www.softpress.com/galleries/>.... 1) This is the default size [here was a screenshot] 2) This is after several "enlarge text" clicks [here was a screenshot] As you can see, in the second version the text has been enlarged but the graphics have not been repositioned to make space for the enlarged text. My question is whether this is a but in Safari or a bug in Freeway. Jim ========== I received a lengthy reply from Keith Rigley of Softpress, the contents of which were posted. I sent the following note to Keith Rigley on February 24, 2010 7:40:43 AM CST ========== Keith, Many thanks for your most thorough explanation. Last night I did some poking around and noted similar behavior in other sites, and that included Apple and Adobe. As I mentioned, this came up in an internet discussion and was originally posted as a suggestion that Freeway didn't implement some things correctly, and that was illustrated with the problem with the Gallery page. This whole problem was not something I was aware of as I haven't used the "Zoom Text Only" option in Safari and have no intention of using it. Again, thanks.... � :-) Jim ========== -- James Leo Ryan --- Austin, Texas --- taliesinsoft(a)me.com |