Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: The Natural Philosopher on 15 Jul 2008 04:30 Steve O wrote: > > > "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in message > news:a3c2b9ae-59ae-4bfd-b7cf-fcda98b26225(a)d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >> On Jul 14, 5:12�pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>> >>> news:44f19f98-4d96-4419-a87a-d6bdbd73f31b(a)c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... >>> >>> >>> >> > Their idea is that if Hezekiah's tunnel exists, then Harry >>> Potter >> > has >>> >> > to be true because the train station in London is mentioned in >>> Harry >>> >> > Potter. >>> >>> >> Exactly. Since we know therefore that harry potter isn't true, the >>> >> fact >>> >> of hezekiahs tunnel means the bible is obviously false. Since we have >>> >> true facts referred to in works of complete fiction. >>> >>> >> By your reasoning at least. >>> >>> > Well, you have it exactly as atheists have been telling me it is. >>> > Don't ask me what it is supposed to mean. >>> > Robert B. Winn >>> >>> Here is an example of rbwinn's logic. >>> >>> Sheep are mentioned in the bible >>> Sheep exist today >>> The bible is accurate and there is a God >>> >>> -- >>> Steve O >> Well, no, Steve O. Here is an example. Atheists were claiming that >> nothing existed on earth today that could prove anything in the >> Bible. So I said, What about Hezekiah's tunnel? These atheists had >> never heard of Hezekiah's tunnel. So after they looked it up, they >> said, The fact that a tunnel exists no more proves the Bible to be >> true than Harry Potter leaving from the train station in London to go >> to wizard's school. > > Here's where you get confused every time. (or deliberately lie) > When they said "nothing exists on earth today that could prove anything > in the bible" they were talking about the SPECIAL claims in the bible, > not the ordinary mundane things such as tunnels, sheep, goats or shekels. > Yet, for some reason, you choose to lie about this and attribute claims > to atheists which don't exist. > You are either a complete liar or you are stuck on stupid. > Both. Its fairly clear our robbo is probably schizoid, probably desperately confused, and probably on medication, and has access to a terminal.And is not the brightest candle in the coal mine. He's desperately trying to put some meaning in his life, to make some sense of it, and the Bible is his latest bag. It probably puts some hope in a hopeless life. He's just smart enough to see what a mess his life is, but not smart enough to work out how to change it by himself: so naturally he looks for help. No one has probably given him any, but the bible makes him a promise. By fixating on the Jesus symbol, he at least has one constant thing to cling to and some hope. In short, he is addicted to Jesus. It's probably slightly better than being addicted to smack, and its certainly a lot cheaper. I've met more than a few robbos in my time. There's probably some intelligence there, but coupled to an unusual mental condition. Such peoples experience is not ordinary, and their attempts to make sense of it result in some pretty weird ways of thinking about it and dealing with it. Often they get involved in some cult or other. Or end up prematurely dead from drug overdoses and the like. Or go off the rails and start seeing visions and end up in the funny farm.
From: hhyapster on 15 Jul 2008 04:42 On Jul 15, 3:32 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > news:206d8c80-66dd-4429-979f-ba45dc128bd7(a)e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > > > Well, you try getting out of a mental institution some time. I think > > the reason I was able to do it was because I learned to talk to > > atheists. Whenever I would talk to psychiatrists, I would talk about > > medical malpractice. > > Robert B. Winn > > You mean you were LET out? > We all assumed you had escaped. > > -- > Steve O > a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter) > B.A.A.W.A. > Convicted by Earthquack > Exempt from purgatory by papal indulgence No, he said he escaped from V.A. Hospital in Washington, but ended up in another V.A.... No wonder all do not want him....a liability and its not like you can give a few doze to cure. There is none.
From: hhyapster on 15 Jul 2008 04:53 On Jul 15, 4:30 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > Steve O wrote: > > > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >news:a3c2b9ae-59ae-4bfd-b7cf-fcda98b26225(a)d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com.... > >> On Jul 14, 5:12�pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > >>>news:44f19f98-4d96-4419-a87a-d6bdbd73f31b(a)c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com.... > > >>> >> > Their idea is that if Hezekiah's tunnel exists, then Harry > >>> Potter >> > has > >>> >> > to be true because the train station in London is mentioned in > >>> Harry > >>> >> > Potter. > > >>> >> Exactly. Since we know therefore that harry potter isn't true, the > >>> >> fact > >>> >> of hezekiahs tunnel means the bible is obviously false. Since we have > >>> >> true facts referred to in works of complete fiction. > > >>> >> By your reasoning at least. > > >>> > Well, you have it exactly as atheists have been telling me it is. > >>> > Don't ask me what it is supposed to mean. > >>> > Robert B. Winn > > >>> Here is an example of rbwinn's logic. > > >>> Sheep are mentioned in the bible > >>> Sheep exist today > >>> The bible is accurate and there is a God > > >>> -- > >>> Steve O > >> Well, no, Steve O. Here is an example. Atheists were claiming that > >> nothing existed on earth today that could prove anything in the > >> Bible. So I said, What about Hezekiah's tunnel? These atheists had > >> never heard of Hezekiah's tunnel. So after they looked it up, they > >> said, The fact that a tunnel exists no more proves the Bible to be > >> true than Harry Potter leaving from the train station in London to go > >> to wizard's school. > > > Here's where you get confused every time. (or deliberately lie) > > When they said "nothing exists on earth today that could prove anything > > in the bible" they were talking about the SPECIAL claims in the bible, > > not the ordinary mundane things such as tunnels, sheep, goats or shekels. > > Yet, for some reason, you choose to lie about this and attribute claims > > to atheists which don't exist. > > You are either a complete liar or you are stuck on stupid. > > Both. > Its fairly clear our robbo is probably schizoid, probably desperately > confused, and probably on medication, and has access to a terminal.And > is not the brightest candle in the coal mine. > > He's desperately trying to put some meaning in his life, to make some > sense of it, and the Bible is his latest bag. It probably puts some > hope in a hopeless life. > > He's just smart enough to see what a mess his life is, but not smart > enough to work out how to change it by himself: so naturally he looks > for help. No one has probably given him any, but the bible makes him a > promise. By fixating on the Jesus symbol, he at least has one constant > thing to cling to and some hope. In short, he is addicted to Jesus. > > It's probably slightly better than being addicted to smack, and its > certainly a lot cheaper. > > I've met more than a few robbos in my time. There's probably some > intelligence there, but coupled to an unusual mental condition. Such > peoples experience is not ordinary, and their attempts to make sense of > it result in some pretty weird ways of thinking about it and dealing > with it. Often they get involved in some cult or other. Or end up > prematurely dead from drug overdoses and the like. Or go off the rails > and start seeing visions and end up in the funny farm. Probably very true of rbwinn. When he told us that he is a welder, I actually wrote some real advise for him to work hard and look forward towards a retirement, instead of wasting time in the church on Sundays. Sundays pay thrice as much. However, my email could not get through...
From: The Natural Philosopher on 15 Jul 2008 05:16 hhyapster(a)gmail.com wrote: > On Jul 15, 3:00 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >> hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: >> >>> First you must realize that atoms are materials, existed in this real >>> world, measurable, detectable even when we can't see them. >>> Your god is an "imaginary" thing...nothing real and not measurable, >>> not detectable, not even believable. >> Now that is where you are wrong. >> >> Atoms do not exist in the material world: they exist in a conceptual >> space in principle no different to his God. >> >> Like his god, they are noumenous hypotheses. *Unlike* his God, they are >> sufficiently precisely defined to be tested, and have not failed the >> tests *so far*. >> >> That means that unlike biblical prophecies, the equations that govern >> their behaviour - or describe them, if you prefer - CAN be used to >> predict the future with an alarmingly high degree of accuracy and in >> considerable detail. In specific areas anyway. >> >> In the final analysis, God is an *emotional* explanation, atoms are a >> scientific and technical one. >> >> The purpose of the god explanation is to make people *feel better*. Like >> any placebo, it need not be based on anything that is real in a material >> or indeed scientific sense. >> >>>> Gordon > No, Philosopher, atoms are real and bonded to form material. No, they are constructs. As in fact is 'material' itself. solidity is according to quanutm physics, an illusion ;-) > The conceptual existence is the electrons which does not stay in a > respective space. Not at all. Atoms and electrons cane equally be 'detected' by using cathode ray tubes, bubble chambers. electron microscopes and the like.. Its important to recognise that the only actual reality is what lies behind our perceptions, and our memory of them. Without memory there is no time...perceptually.. we sense the world that we assume lies around us, as a data stream of various impulses that get *interpreted* into something that becomes the world we recognise: none of this is real at the point of perception, its all a construct. The fact that it works pretty well, is perhaps strong evidence that it correlates to something that IS real pretty closely, but its not overwhelming proof. Oh, and if you want to know where God lives in all that..look into the perceptual process itself. Deus, in this case is definitely IN Machina..;-) Something exists (in?) us that definitely is a Creator, and does indeed bring Order of perception out of the Chaos..of sensation. You would probably call it something like consciousness. and indeed it DOES have a personal connection ..and is amenable to manipulation by ritual, prayer and other typically 'religious' techniques. And indeed it can completely transform the way you see the world..in fact that seems to be its only function ;-) Which is why I have much sympathy for religion *as a way to frig with the human operating system*. BUT you don't need to 'believe in God' to use it that way. Although Faith, as an ACTIVITY, has its uses. There is not actually 'real' and 'not real' More, there is a hierarchy extending from the most numinous concepts down to the reality of our sensations,which is about as close to fact as we can ever get. Normal perception of the world is at least two steps removed from *sensation* of it though. Only those whose normal perceptions have not been developed or socialised - typically 'small children' or those whose perceptions are severely disrupted by trauma, (mental) illness, or deliberate steps..drugs, fasting, deep meditation and the like..are in a position to actually go a step closer..and 'enter the kingdom of heaven' etc blah blah. A process, the return from which is akin to being reborn... So when I read 'except as ye become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven' it makes perfect sense to me. Likewise the myth of death and rebirth. Its the stock in trade of all shamanic traditions..the descent to the underworld where some powerful spirit re-makes the body of the shaman etc. Also eternity: if you knock out the perceptual processes that are to do with memory, you will exist in a timeless instant present. If you knock out most of the interpretive process, you will end up in a state of blissful innocence. I have always had a sneaking suspicion that the story of rip Van Winkle is an allegorical reference.. If you remove the social aspects of religion, what is left is remarkably similar in all traditions: A set of ways to change consciousness, and some lessons derived from so doing. And usually some fairly strange powers associated with those who *can* do so. Yu can even chart the rise of the god concept - originally nature spirits, that are actually analogues of what we would call 'natural laws' ..then gods of emotional and mental states - the greek pantheon being more or less that..and finally monotheism,which at least makes the point that all of these are aspects of one thing. You would call it 'consciousness': I call it something different, but that's because of my personal history. > So are the sub-atomic particles.
From: Alex W. on 15 Jul 2008 05:38
"Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message news:wJUek.31221$Zm1.24559(a)newsfe27.ams2... > > "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" <alwhipp(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote in message > news:c53beab3-625f-4b94-9ccf-fe315c8a1d25(a)c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com... > On Jul 14, 12:31 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >> The more I learn about Europe, the less I want to go there. >> Robert B. Winn > > Yes, some of THEM in Europe are educated. Wouldn't want to mix with > those types. > ============================================== > Correction: MOST of US in Europe are educated. > ..... not to mention many of us in Britain .... |