More than 90 percent of objects found in the vast outer-solar system reservoir may have been born around other stars
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From: Greg Neill on 12 Jun 2010 10:36 Brad Guth wrote: > On Jun 11, 9:56 am, "Greg Neill" <gneil...(a)MOVEsympatico.ca> wrote: >> Brad Guth wrote: >>> Sirius(B) is the only seriously big one of up to 9 solar mass that >>> went nova(helium flashover), as well as having lost its tidal radii >>> grip on its planets and their moons upon collapsing from its red >>> supergiant phase as of a little more than 65 million years BP. >> >>> The original Sirius star/solar system was extremely nearby and likely >>> worth <12.5 Ms, and once again we're closing back in on the remainders >>> that includes its complex Oort cloud. >> >> 1. Sirius(B) has a mass of about the same as that of >> the Sun. It's original mass is estimated at about >> 5 solar masses. Sirius(A) has a mass of about 2.1 >> times that of the Sun. > > But from what, how and when did Sirius(B) it get to that current mass? > >> >> 2. The Sirius system has a net redshift, meaning that it >> is travelling away from us, along with any attendant >> planets or smaller bodies. > > That's just dead wrong, and otherwise mainstream status-quo silly, > because your own peers disagree with you. > > -7.6 km/sec means that we're closing in on Sirius. My apologies. I misremembered. Yes, the radial component of Sirius' motion is negative. Combined with its observed proper motions in Right Ascention and Declination I calculate a net speed of about 18.3 km/sec for Sirius with respect to us, and a closest approach of about 7.8 light years in about 60,000 years. > >> >> 3. The age of the Sirius system is estimated to be between >> 200 and 300 million years, which is an eyeblink when >> compared to the current age of our own solar system. > > Exactly (+/- 50 million years). Do try to keep up. Please cite your source for this figure. How do you figure that a 5 solar mass star could evolve to a dwarf in only 50 million years?
From: Brad Guth on 12 Jun 2010 15:03 On Jun 12, 7:36 am, "Greg Neill" <gneil...(a)MOVEsympatico.ca> wrote: > Brad Guth wrote: > > On Jun 11, 9:56 am, "Greg Neill" <gneil...(a)MOVEsympatico.ca> wrote: > >> Brad Guth wrote: > >>> Sirius(B) is the only seriously big one of up to 9 solar mass that > >>> went nova(helium flashover), as well as having lost its tidal radii > >>> grip on its planets and their moons upon collapsing from its red > >>> supergiant phase as of a little more than 65 million years BP. > > >>> The original Sirius star/solar system was extremely nearby and likely > >>> worth <12.5 Ms, and once again we're closing back in on the remainders > >>> that includes its complex Oort cloud. > > >> 1. Sirius(B) has a mass of about the same as that of > >> the Sun. It's original mass is estimated at about > >> 5 solar masses. Sirius(A) has a mass of about 2.1 > >> times that of the Sun. > > > But from what, how and when did Sirius(B) it get to that current mass? > > >> 2. The Sirius system has a net redshift, meaning that it > >> is travelling away from us, along with any attendant > >> planets or smaller bodies. > > > That's just dead wrong, and otherwise mainstream status-quo silly, > > because your own peers disagree with you. > > > -7.6 km/sec means that we're closing in on Sirius. > > My apologies. I misremembered. Yes, the radial component > of Sirius' motion is negative. > > Combined with its observed proper motions in Right Ascention > and Declination I calculate a net speed of about 18.3 km/sec > for Sirius with respect to us, and a closest approach of > about 7.8 light years in about 60,000 years. Here again, I'm interpreting we're in a tight elliptical path, so much so that we'll see a much higher closing velocity and a much closer encounter. > > >> 3. The age of the Sirius system is estimated to be between > >> 200 and 300 million years, which is an eyeblink when > >> compared to the current age of our own solar system. > > > Exactly (+/- 50 million years). Do try to keep up. > > Please cite your source for this figure. How do you figure > that a 5 solar mass star could evolve to a dwarf in only > 50 million years? Make that an 8.5 or possible 9 solar mass original of Sirius(B). 65 some odd million years ago is more like a massive and extremely vibrant star that was 200<250 million years old at the finishing time of its 5.5 solar mass red supergiant phase going into its helium flashover, which by the way kinda nailed us. My interpretation is the all-inclusive worth of the original Sirius star/solar system was <12.5 solar masses (possibly greater if Sirius C existed). Please try harder to keep up. ~ BG
From: Brad Guth on 12 Jun 2010 15:05 On Jun 11, 7:43 pm, Sam Wormley <sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 6/11/10 8:00 PM, Brad Guth wrote: > > > But from what, how and when did Sirius(B) it get to that current mass? > > http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/sow/sirius.html > > "Sirius B, however, is actually the hotter of the two, a blue-white > 24,800 Kelvin. Though typically separated from each other by a few > seconds of arc, Sirius B is terribly difficult to see in the glare of > Sirius A. The only way the companion star can be both hot and dim is to > be small, only 0.92 the size of Earth, the total luminosity (including > its ultraviolet light) just 2.4 percent that of the Sun. The two orbit > each other with a 50.1 year period at an average distance of 19.8 > Astronomical Units, about Uranus's distance from the Sun, a large > orbital eccentricity carrying them from 31.5 AU apart to 8.1 AU and back > again. They were closest in 1994 and will be again in 2044, while they > will be farthest apart in 2019. From the orbit (and spectroscopic data), > we find that Sirius A and B have respective masses of 2.12 and 1.03 > times that of the Sun. Sirius B is the chief member of a trio of classic > white dwarfs, the others Procyon B and 40 Eridani B. Its high mass and > tiny radius lead to an amazing average density of 1.7 metric tons per > cubic centimeter, roughly a sugar cube. White dwarfs are the end > products of ordinary stars like the Sun, tiny remnants that were once > nuclear-fusing cores that have run out of fuel. Most are balls of carbon > and oxygen whose fates are merely to cool forever. To have evolved > first, Sirius B must once have been more massive and luminous than > Sirius A. That its mass is now lower is proof that stars lose > considerable mass as they die. Given the mass of the white dwarf and the > 250 million year age of the system, Sirius B may once have been a hot > class B3-B5 star that could have contained as much as 5 to 7 solar > masses, the star perhaps losing over 80 percent of itself back into > interstellar space through earlier winds". Your 7 solar mass original of Sirius(B) seems conservative. ~ BG
From: Sam Wormley on 12 Jun 2010 16:41 On 6/12/10 2:05 PM, Brad Guth wrote: > On Jun 11, 7:43 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On 6/11/10 8:00 PM, Brad Guth wrote: >> >>> But from what, how and when did Sirius(B) it get to that current mass? >> >> http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/sow/sirius.html >> >> "Sirius B, however, is actually the hotter of the two, a blue-white >> 24,800 Kelvin. Though typically separated from each other by a few >> seconds of arc, Sirius B is terribly difficult to see in the glare of >> Sirius A. The only way the companion star can be both hot and dim is to >> be small, only 0.92 the size of Earth, the total luminosity (including >> its ultraviolet light) just 2.4 percent that of the Sun. The two orbit >> each other with a 50.1 year period at an average distance of 19.8 >> Astronomical Units, about Uranus's distance from the Sun, a large >> orbital eccentricity carrying them from 31.5 AU apart to 8.1 AU and back >> again. They were closest in 1994 and will be again in 2044, while they >> will be farthest apart in 2019. From the orbit (and spectroscopic data), >> we find that Sirius A and B have respective masses of 2.12 and 1.03 >> times that of the Sun. Sirius B is the chief member of a trio of classic >> white dwarfs, the others Procyon B and 40 Eridani B. Its high mass and >> tiny radius lead to an amazing average density of 1.7 metric tons per >> cubic centimeter, roughly a sugar cube. White dwarfs are the end >> products of ordinary stars like the Sun, tiny remnants that were once >> nuclear-fusing cores that have run out of fuel. Most are balls of carbon >> and oxygen whose fates are merely to cool forever. To have evolved >> first, Sirius B must once have been more massive and luminous than >> Sirius A. That its mass is now lower is proof that stars lose >> considerable mass as they die. Given the mass of the white dwarf and the >> 250 million year age of the system, Sirius B may once have been a hot >> class B3-B5 star that could have contained as much as 5 to 7 solar >> masses, the star perhaps losing over 80 percent of itself back into >> interstellar space through earlier winds". > > Your 7 solar mass original of Sirius(B) seems conservative. > > ~ BG What calculation do you have that make you think 7 solar masses is conservative? The mass of the white dwarf? Show us your calculations.
From: Brad Guth on 13 Jun 2010 01:19
On Jun 12, 1:41 pm, Sam Wormley <sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 6/12/10 2:05 PM, Brad Guth wrote: > > > > > On Jun 11, 7:43 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 6/11/10 8:00 PM, Brad Guth wrote: > > >>> But from what, how and when did Sirius(B) it get to that current mass? > > >> http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/sow/sirius.html > > >> "Sirius B, however, is actually the hotter of the two, a blue-white > >> 24,800 Kelvin. Though typically separated from each other by a few > >> seconds of arc, Sirius B is terribly difficult to see in the glare of > >> Sirius A. The only way the companion star can be both hot and dim is to > >> be small, only 0.92 the size of Earth, the total luminosity (including > >> its ultraviolet light) just 2.4 percent that of the Sun. The two orbit > >> each other with a 50.1 year period at an average distance of 19.8 > >> Astronomical Units, about Uranus's distance from the Sun, a large > >> orbital eccentricity carrying them from 31.5 AU apart to 8.1 AU and back > >> again. They were closest in 1994 and will be again in 2044, while they > >> will be farthest apart in 2019. From the orbit (and spectroscopic data), > >> we find that Sirius A and B have respective masses of 2.12 and 1.03 > >> times that of the Sun. Sirius B is the chief member of a trio of classic > >> white dwarfs, the others Procyon B and 40 Eridani B. Its high mass and > >> tiny radius lead to an amazing average density of 1.7 metric tons per > >> cubic centimeter, roughly a sugar cube. White dwarfs are the end > >> products of ordinary stars like the Sun, tiny remnants that were once > >> nuclear-fusing cores that have run out of fuel. Most are balls of carbon > >> and oxygen whose fates are merely to cool forever. To have evolved > >> first, Sirius B must once have been more massive and luminous than > >> Sirius A. That its mass is now lower is proof that stars lose > >> considerable mass as they die. Given the mass of the white dwarf and the > >> 250 million year age of the system, Sirius B may once have been a hot > >> class B3-B5 star that could have contained as much as 5 to 7 solar > >> masses, the star perhaps losing over 80 percent of itself back into > >> interstellar space through earlier winds". > > > Your 7 solar mass original of Sirius(B) seems conservative. > > > ~ BG > > What calculation do you have that make you think 7 solar masses is > conservative? The mass of the white dwarf? Show us your calculations. Going by what I read from others that usually claim to know as much or more than Einstein; an accelerated burn-through of mostly hydrogen and some helium, from an original solar mass of <10 could happen within as little as 100 million years before inflating into an impressive red supergiant (much like Betelgeuse of only 9 million years that could helium-flashover within the century, may have already happened but itll remain undetected because the speed of light is so slow), by suddenly shrinking its red supergiant sphere as it quickly burns off the remaining hydrogen, until that final helium flashover takes place and it becomes a white dwarf. Therefore a Sirius(B) 200 million year time-line before helium flashover doesn't seem so unlikely. Add in the possible merger of Sirius(C), certainly couldn't hurt expediting that process. Sirius(C) could have been a monster like Betelgeuse, thus long gone by now and otherwise conceivable as what may have combined with Sirius(B) and helped trigger its demise. At any rate, the all-inclusive Sirius star/solar system was likely worth at least 12.5 solar masses. Supposedly the red supergiant Betelgeuse thats currently worth 16~18 solar mass and losing >6e24 kg/year, might easily have been an original stellar mass of 32, could end up being an unstable white dwarf of 1.6 solar mass, suggesting a 20:1 ratio. ~ BG |