New usenet hierarchy proposal
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From: Ulrich Korndoerfer on 7 May 2010 18:56 Hi Olaf, Schmidt schrieb: > "Ulrich Korndoerfer" <ulrich_wants_nospam(a)prosource.de> schrieb im > Newsbeitrag news:%2390NFrh7KHA.6072(a)TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl... > >> To be precise: if one subscribes to any common NNTP-services >> provider and there lists the available ngs, the vb group will not >> show up. >> At least I think so. Perhaps Olaf could clarify this. Things would >> change if gmane is reflected to the other NNTP-servers too >> (I don't know). > That depends on, if the ISP decide, to list the gmane-namespace - > the gmane-server is not hidden from public usenet .... So gmane allows that? Will this not generate to much sync traffic for them (as I read from the web site it is hosted by in total 6 server machines, and only some of them are reserved for nntp serving, others eg serve the web interface and other things)? > some public reachable usenet-servers as e.g. 'aioe.org' > do mirror and list some of the gmane-groups, mostly the > linux-kernel mailinglist reflections, gmane has to offers as > one of the entries in its namespace. > Ok, aioe.org (never heard from this one :-)) seems to be not a "common" known news server (in the sense of being known to or used by a common user searching for help). > But aside from that, I'm not that sure what would change, > even when gmane would be mirrored completely and > be seen and listed everywhere on usenet. > It is not easy (or impossible) to be precise in predicting how people would find to the group. One way probably would be by searching the web for a vb question and then stumbling in the results over links to those "unofficial" news gatherer, that make there own websites from ng posts, eg. www.developersdex.com, www.koders.com, us.generation-nt.com, www.tech-archive.net, www.generation-nt.com, www.adras.com, www.codenewsgroups.net etc (those are the first hits on a Google search for "cfilesearch", which all refer and cite some postings of mine :-)) From there one could see to which ng the original post was posted to. It probably is more likely to get into the focus of those "gatherers" if the group is overall in the usenet. > We would need to ensure to publish the new group-name- > hierarchy (if we really plan to do that at all) in either case on > as many commonly known community-sites as possible - > and at this occassion we should of course mention the > appropriate newsserver which takes the leading role. > > Seriously, do you remember yet, how and where you got > the information, which groups are there to discuss VB-topics? > Was your first try, to open a NewsReader and check what > your ISP had to offer - or did you searched the Web? > Surely not from fishing from a NNTP-providers group list ;-) To be honest, I don't remember, nowadays I would search using Google :-) > At least nowadays I would suspect any new users (searching > for help) would either enter their direct question into google - > or search something like: > "vb new discussion groups" > > Don't know how easy it would be, to bring something > to the front there, which contains the new informations > (on a central page on mvps.org for example, which anybody > who runs his own website could link to, including the group- > members in all the other countries as well) ... > Currently the above search-words bring up our current > group on the "google-groups-site", so if the very last posting > into this group is, where we moved to, then we'd be found > without problems for a while... ;-) > > >>> Even just going to comp.* is likely to lose people >>> who do a search, find the MS forums, and think >>> that's all there is. If the group is only on gmane >>> then won't it probably just end up being a small >>> club of regulars? >>> >> That's a "risk", yes. It is very important to propagate the to be new >> place as broad as possible, eg. in this NG before it is shut dowwn. > > Yep - nothing is perfect here - but if we do nothing - > or just wait too long with some "actions" - the whole thing > can only get worse. > Think so too. -- Ulrich Korndoerfer VB tips, helpers, solutions -> http://www.proSource.de/Downloads/
From: dpb on 7 May 2010 19:12 Schmidt wrote: > "dpb" <none(a)non.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:hs243q$46u$1(a)news.eternal-september.org... > >> Usenet is "everybody's equal" -- there's no lead/primary/server/host; if >> that were the case then nobody could post anywhere if that particular >> server happened to be down and there would also have to be some >> mechanism by which the rest of usenet knew that. usenet is essentially >> nothing but a bunch of peers; each is its own repository of postings w/ >> its own retention period, etc. >> >> Where in RFC 977 do you see anything about there being such an >> arrangement? <http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc977/rfc977> >> >> AFAIK the only thing would be if everybody at all the mirror sites also >> took access to the microsoft.* groups off. Possible but not probable imo. > > It's a bit more complex, if we talk about usenet and not just > NNTP. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_message > ftp://ftp.isc.org/pub/usenet/control/microsoft/ But there's no "lead server", etc., that prevents posting if the ms servers go away. Now, if MS sends and everybody honors a "rmgroups" command then you're hurt...which I guess isn't as remote a chance as I was thinking as it would obviously have authentication if they did do so so likely would be handled automagically. So, if that eventuality were to come to pass, I'd think the comp.* hierarchy is the place and if traffic were to justify it potentially a newly-named VB group but don't see why it should be necessary or even desirable to start a whole new hierarchy out of whole cloth. $0.02, etc., etc., etc., ... --
From: dpb on 7 May 2010 19:15 Ulrich Korndoerfer wrote: .... > Surely not from fishing from a NNTP-providers group list ;-) To be > honest, I don't remember, nowadays I would search using Google :-) For usenet users, that's surely what I'd expect. For newbies, they'll be led via google groups from a search perhaps, but they'll likely never find anything except a web portal. --
From: Ulrich Korndoerfer on 7 May 2010 19:22 Hi, dpb schrieb: > Ulrich Korndoerfer wrote: >> Hi, >> >> dpb schrieb: >>> Ulrich Korndoerfer wrote: >>>> >>> .... >>> >>>> That's a "risk", yes. It is very important to propagate the to be >>>> new place as broad as possible, eg. in this NG before it is shut dowwn. >>> >>> MS pulling the plug on their server array isn't going to shut down >>> anything except their servers...the group name is already on about a >>> zillion mirrored nntp servers already so what's the point? Just go >>> to another server if/when MS does remove nntp access and "keep on >>> truckin'". >>> >> >> AFAIK if the primary server/ the host goes away, you no longer can >> post to the groups it hosted. Where should the mirrors send the posts >> to? It might be possible (as long as the mirrors do not remove them) >> to *read* old posts, but not to post new ones, when MS shuts the host >> down. > > Why would that be as long as the server you're reading on allows posting? > > Usenet is "everybody's equal" -- there's no lead/primary/server/host; if > that were the case then nobody could post anywhere if that particular > server happened to be down and there would also have to be some > mechanism by which the rest of usenet knew that. usenet is essentially > nothing but a bunch of peers; each is its own repository of postings w/ > its own retention period, etc. > > Where in RFC 977 do you see anything about there being such an > arrangement? <http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc977/rfc977> > Ok, you got me. Never read this RFC. But the situation with the MS groups seems to be special. Everybody (and MS did so) can open up one or more news server (like the news.microsoft.com I'm using) and provide news services from there, and establish a group hierarchy there on its own likings. The question is: will this hierarchy be mirrored by the peers you named or will it be a closed shop? Is or was MS interested in being mirrored or not? Were the peers (with the community in their back) interested? Some of them obviously were not. They did not regard MS groups as "official" part of the usenet (partly because MS did not well behave). And what happens when MS now kills its own news servers including the hierarchy? Can MS demand to remove them from the peers that currently mirror them? Will perhaps some peers sigh and say: finally we can get rid of them? > AFAIK the only thing would be if everybody at all the mirror sites also > took access to the microsoft.* groups off. Possible but not probable imo. > > Since everybody is going to have to go to some other news server than > Microsoft anyway when they pull the plug, why not wait until it's shown > that there's a problem? As my Dad used to say when I was a little > tyke--"Wait until you're hurt before you cry." > There are unanswered questions, of course. But I think, it is better to react "proactively" than sitting there and wait until it may hurt, at least as long nobody can definitely tell what consequences the MS announcement has. -- Ulrich Korndoerfer VB tips, helpers, solutions -> http://www.proSource.de/Downloads/
From: Ulrich Korndoerfer on 7 May 2010 19:30
Hi, dpb schrieb: > Ulrich Korndoerfer wrote: > .... > >> Surely not from fishing from a NNTP-providers group list ;-) To be >> honest, I don't remember, nowadays I would search using Google :-) > > For usenet users, that's surely what I'd expect. I remember I had done that then in the olden times ;-) But I quickly was lost in the ultra deep hierarchies. The most annoying thing was that to get a grasp what really was going on under the advertised name I had to sign them on in my news client and then had to scan some posts to see whats up. That was very time consuming and frustrating. So long ago I switched to select a ng from "hear say", recommendations, other sources (eg searching the web) ;-) -- Ulrich Korndoerfer VB tips, helpers, solutions -> http://www.proSource.de/Downloads/ |