Wonderful!
in [Physics]
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From: mpc755 on 16 Dec 2009 16:56 On Dec 16, 3:35 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >On Dec 16, 2:26=A0pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > >wrote: > >> mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >> >In Aether Displacement, since light travels at 'c' relative to the > >> >aether and the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of > >> >reference are both equal in all respects, meaning the aether is at > >> >rest in both frames of reference, > > >> This "aether is at rest in both frames of reference" is a contradiction > >> and evidence against aether, since it would require it to be both at > >> rest and moving at v in the unprimed frames (since it is at rest in the > >> primed frame) simultaneously. > >The train and embankment occupy different regions of three dimensional > >space. The train is knee deep in water. The water is at rest relative > >to the train. The embankment is knee deep in water. The water is at > >rest relative to the embankment. Lightning strikes occur at A, A', B, > >and B'. The light from the lightning strikes at A and B travel through > >the water and reach M simultaneously. The light from the lightning > >strikes at A' and B' travel through the water and reach M' > >simultaneously. > >Are you saying the above paragraph is physically impossible? > > That's fine, but I would assume you'll want to eventually return to the > original gedanken experiment, where there is a train passing the > embankment, and only two (not four) lightning strikes. In that case, > there is only one knee-deep pool of water, and it cannot be at rest > with respect to both the embankment and the train, if the train is > moving with respect to the embankment. > The train and embankment are 1 millimeter apart. A and A' are 1 millimeter apart, B and B' are 1 millimeter apart and M and M' are 1 millimeter apart at the time of the lightning strikes. A and B are 1 light year from M and A' and B' are 1 light year from M'. The train and embankment are moving at 1/4 the speed of light relative to one another. The lightning strikes at A and A' are determined to be as close to simultaneous as possible as measured by an instrument between A and A'. The lightning strikes at B and B' are determined to be as close to simultaneous as possible as measured by an instrument between B and B. In Aether Displacement, the train and the embankment are 1 mm apart and exist in their own regions of three dimensional space and since the train and embankment occupy different regions of three dimensional space the aether can be at rest relative to the train and at rest relative to the embankment. In Aether Displacement, the light from the lightning strikes at A and B reach M simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M AND the light from the lightning strikes at A' and B' reach M' simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M'. In AD, with the train and the embankment occupying their own regions of three dimensional space, no matter how close they are to one another and with the aether at rest relative to both train and the embankment, it can be said the light from A and B reaches M simultaneously and the light from A' and B' reaches M' simultaneously, in nature. In Aether Displacement, it doesn't matter how close or how far away the embankment and train are relative to each other. In AD, all that matters is light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. Once there is only one knee-deep pool of water, and a single lightning strike at A/A' and a single lightning strike at B/B', where the light originates from and how the light travels depends upon which frame of reference the pool of water is at rest relative to. If the knee-deep pool of water is at rest relative to the embankment, measuring to the marks left on the train in order to determine where the light traveled from to M' is meaningless. Likewise, if the knee-deep pool of water is at rest relative to the train, measuring to the marks left on the embankment in order to determine where the light traveled from to M is meaningless. In AD, when there is one knee-deep pool of water and single lightning strikes at A/A' and B/B', measuring to the marks made at A and B in order to determine how far the light traveled to M AND measuring to the marks made at A' and B' in order to determine how far the light traveled to M' is incorrect. At best it is an approximation of how far the light traveled.
From: Inertial on 16 Dec 2009 16:59 "BURT" <macromitch(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f7f624b3-c2de-45de-82d0-cf9d17934f18(a)u25g2000prh.googlegroups.com... > On Dec 16, 12:35 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > wrote: >> mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: >> >On Dec 16, 2:26=A0pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) >> >wrote: >> >> mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: >> >> >In Aether Displacement, since light travels at 'c' relative to the >> >> >aether and the train frame of reference and the embankment frame of >> >> >reference are both equal in all respects, meaning the aether is at >> >> >rest in both frames of reference, >> >> >> This "aether is at rest in both frames of reference" is a >> >> contradiction >> >> and evidence against aether, since it would require it to be both at >> >> rest and moving at v in the unprimed frames (since it is at rest in >> >> the >> >> primed frame) simultaneously. >> >The train and embankment occupy different regions of three dimensional >> >space. The train is knee deep in water. The water is at rest relative >> >to the train. The embankment is knee deep in water. The water is at >> >rest relative to the embankment. Lightning strikes occur at A, A', B, >> >and B'. The light from the lightning strikes at A and B travel through >> >the water and reach M simultaneously. The light from the lightning >> >strikes at A' and B' travel through the water and reach M' >> >simultaneously. >> >Are you saying the above paragraph is physically impossible? >> >> That's fine, but I would assume you'll want to eventually return to the >> original gedanken experiment, where there is a train passing the >> embankment, and only two (not four) lightning strikes. In that case, >> there is only one knee-deep pool of water, and it cannot be at rest >> with respect to both the embankment and the train, if the train is >> moving with respect to the embankment. >> >> >> >> >In the above paragraph, remove the water.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > When lightening strikes the train moves. So would I.
From: mpc755 on 16 Dec 2009 17:01 On Dec 16, 4:46 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 16, 2:14 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 16, 3:09 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Dec 16, 12:51 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 16, 11:30 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > Ok, so let's not talk about frames of reference. The train is 100 > > > > > billion light years away from the embankment. Is it physically > > > > > possible for the light from lightning strikes at A' and B' to reach M' > > > > > simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M' on the train and is > > > > > it physically possible for the light from lightning strikes at A and B > > > > > to reach M simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M if the > > > > > train and the embankment are 100 billion light years apart and A and B > > > > > are 1 mile each from M and A' and B' are one mile each from M'? > > > > > Let's assume logic prevails and if the train and the embankment are > > > > 100 billion light years apart, light from lightning strikes at A' and > > > > B' can reach M' simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M' and > > > > light from lightning strikes at A and B can reach M simultaneously as > > > > determined by an Observer at M. > > > > > So, when does SR 'kick in'? > > > > > For some reason, in SR, in my animation, the train and the embankment > > > > are too close to each other even though both exist in their own > > > > regions of three dimensional space: > > > > You apparently don't understand the train and the embankment scenario > > > that Einstein was proposing. > > > In that scenario, there are only TWO lightning strikes, not FOUR. > > > > And you are wrong in thinking there are two frames that live in > > > isolated regions of three-dimensional space. You have the impression > > > that the train frame is the space inside the train and the embankment > > > frame is the space outside the train. That is not what a frame of > > > reference is. > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > > > For some reason, in SR, in my animation, the light from the lightning > > > > strikes at A' and B' cannot reach M' simultaneously as determined by > > > > an Observer at M' AND the light from the lightning strikes at A and B > > > > cannot reach M simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M. > > > > In SR's train and embankment scenario, there are only TWO lightning > > > strikes, not four. > > > In SR's train and embankment scenario? > > > You mean in Einstein's train and embankment scenario. > > > I'm saying the SR interpretation of my animation where there are four > > lightning strikes. > > Your animation -- which has the strikes at A' and B' occurring > simultaneously in the rest frame of A, B, and M -- also has the light > from those strikes arriving at M' simultaneously. This does not happen > in nature, experimentally. > Incorrect. If you perform the experiment where water is at rest relative to the embankment and water is at rest relative to the train and the embankment and the train occupy different regions of three dimensional space, then my animation is correct. It doesn't matter how close the train is to the embankment, as long as the water is at rest relative to both the train and the embankment, the light from A and B will reach M simultaneously and the light from A' and B' will reach M' simultaneously, in nature. Now, if you remove the water and the aether were at rest relative to the train and the aether were at rest relative to the embankment, the light from A and B will reach M simultaneously and the light from A' and B' will reach M' simultaneously, in nature.
From: Michael Moroney on 16 Dec 2009 18:03 mpc755 <mpc755(a)gmail.com> writes: >The train and embankment are 1 millimeter apart. A and A' are 1 >millimeter apart, B and B' are 1 millimeter apart and M and M' are 1 >millimeter apart at the time of the lightning strikes. A and B are 1 >light year from M and A' and B' are 1 light year from M'. The train >and embankment are moving at 1/4 the speed of light relative to one >another. .... >Once there is only one knee-deep pool of water, and a single lightning >strike at A/A' and a single lightning strike at B/B', where the light >originates from and how the light travels depends upon which frame of >reference the pool of water is at rest relative to. If the knee-deep >pool of water is at rest relative to the embankment, measuring to the >marks left on the train in order to determine where the light traveled >from to M' is meaningless. Likewise, if the knee-deep pool of water is >at rest relative to the train, measuring to the marks left on the >embankment in order to determine where the light traveled from to M is >meaningless. Now you're getting stupid trying to get your aether to be at rest in all frames to explain light moving at c in all frames. But I'll have fun with it. Someone on board the train (moving at 1/4 c) shines a light beam toward the embankment at a right angle to the train motion. 1) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, when it's still travelling through the train? 2) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, after it has passed through the window of the train and it is now passing through the aether of the embankment? 3) What will someone on the embankment measuring the velocity of the beam measure for its velocity? Now, the light is at one end of the train, A'. The light beam is aimed almost toward B', but not quite. It is offset a tiny angle epsilon, toward the embankment. (since the train is 2 light years long [A'-M'-B'] but only 1 mm from the embankment, epsilon can be _very_ tiny) There is an open window along its path. 1) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, when it's still travelling through the train? 2) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, after it has passed through the window of the train and it is now passing through the aether of the embankment? 3) What will someone on the embankment measuring the velocity of the beam measure for its velocity?
From: mpc755 on 16 Dec 2009 18:22
On Dec 16, 6:03 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >The train and embankment are 1 millimeter apart. A and A' are 1 > >millimeter apart, B and B' are 1 millimeter apart and M and M' are 1 > >millimeter apart at the time of the lightning strikes. A and B are 1 > >light year from M and A' and B' are 1 light year from M'. The train > >and embankment are moving at 1/4 the speed of light relative to one > >another. > ... > >Once there is only one knee-deep pool of water, and a single lightning > >strike at A/A' and a single lightning strike at B/B', where the light > >originates from and how the light travels depends upon which frame of > >reference the pool of water is at rest relative to. If the knee-deep > >pool of water is at rest relative to the embankment, measuring to the > >marks left on the train in order to determine where the light traveled > >from to M' is meaningless. Likewise, if the knee-deep pool of water is > >at rest relative to the train, measuring to the marks left on the > >embankment in order to determine where the light traveled from to M is > >meaningless. > > Now you're getting stupid trying to get your aether to be at rest in > all frames to explain light moving at c in all frames. But I'll have > fun with it. Someone on board the train (moving at 1/4 c) shines a light > beam toward the embankment at a right angle to the train motion. > 1) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, when > it's still travelling through the train? Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > 2) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, after > it has passed through the window of the train and it is now passing through > the aether of the embankment? Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > 3) What will someone on the embankment measuring the velocity of the beam > measure for its velocity? > The light will be measured to be 'c'. > Now, the light is at one end of the train, A'. The light beam is aimed > almost toward B', but not quite. It is offset a tiny angle epsilon, > toward the embankment. (since the train is 2 light years long [A'-M'-B'] > but only 1 mm from the embankment, epsilon can be _very_ tiny) There is an > open window along its path. > > 1) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, when > it's still travelling through the train? Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > 2) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, after > it has passed through the window of the train and it is now passing through > the aether of the embankment? Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > 3) What will someone on the embankment measuring the velocity of the beam > measure for its velocity? The light will be measured at 'c'. The mistake you are making is tying the emission point to a particular point in three dimensional space and saying the light travels at 'c' relative to a frame of reference the destination exist in. This is not who light works. The light is always traveling at 'c' relative to the aether. Since the aether is at rest relative to the train, the light travels at 'c' while on the train. When the light exits the train and is traveling along the embankment, where the aether is also at rest, the light travels at 'c' relative to the embankment. That is why in my animation, light from A' can reach M earlier than does the light from A. This is due to the light traveling at 'c' relative to the aether which is at rest relative to the train. If the train is long enough and the moving fast enough relative to the embankment, the aether could exit the train and reach M ahead of the light traveling from A. The light always travels at 'c' relative to the aether. If you measure where the light originated from on the train at A' from the perspective of the Observer at M, you do not measure to where A' was in three dimensional space relative to the Observer at M at the time of emission. This does not represent where the light traveled from. Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. |