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in [Physics]
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From: mpc755 on 17 Dec 2009 10:47 On Dec 17, 10:38 am, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >The train is full of water. The laser is fired at the back of the > >train. The front of the train is glass. There is an Observer on the > >train in front of the glass. There is an Observer on the embankment. > >The light travels through the water on the train, through the glass, > >exits the glass and reaches the Observer on the train and the Observer > >on the embankment simultaneously. How far does the light travel to > >each Observer? > > 1 light year as far as the guy on the train is concerned, 1.25 light > years as far as the guy on the embankment is concerned. > > And therein lies the problem. That is incorrect. The light is traveling relative to the water on the train. The light travels 1 light year to both Observers. And therein lies your misunderstanding.
From: mpc755 on 17 Dec 2009 10:50 On Dec 17, 10:42 am, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) wrote: > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > >I knew you would not be able to understand this. > > I understand fine. It is you who doesn't understand that your > theory doesn't make predictions consistent with existing measurements, > and therefore is automatically wrong. My theory does make predictions consistent with existing measurements. What you are doing which is incorrect is you are tying the lightning strike to a point in three dimensional space which is meaningless. Einstein's train gedanken is modified so the water is at rest relative to the embankment. Lightning strikes occur in the water at A/A' and B/ B'. When determining how far the light travels to the Observer at M', does the Observer at M' measure to A' and B' or to A and B? The Observer at M' on the train measures to A and B and determines the lightning strikes were simultaneous just like the Observer at M does. The Observer at M' measuring to A' and B' in order to determine how far the light traveled to reach M' when the light is traveling through water which is at rest relative to the embankment is incorrect.
From: paparios on 17 Dec 2009 10:57 On 17 dic, 12:47, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 17, 10:38 am, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > wrote: > > > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > >The train is full of water. The laser is fired at the back of the > > >train. The front of the train is glass. There is an Observer on the > > >train in front of the glass. There is an Observer on the embankment. > > >The light travels through the water on the train, through the glass, > > >exits the glass and reaches the Observer on the train and the Observer > > >on the embankment simultaneously. How far does the light travel to > > >each Observer? > > > 1 light year as far as the guy on the train is concerned, 1.25 light > > years as far as the guy on the embankment is concerned. > > > And therein lies the problem. > > That is incorrect. The light is traveling relative to the water on the > train. The light travels 1 light year to both Observers. > > And therein lies your misunderstanding. Book worthy again!!!! Miguel Rios
From: mpc755 on 17 Dec 2009 11:03 On Dec 17, 10:57 am, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 17 dic, 12:47, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 17, 10:38 am, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > wrote: > > > > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > > >The train is full of water. The laser is fired at the back of the > > > >train. The front of the train is glass. There is an Observer on the > > > >train in front of the glass. There is an Observer on the embankment. > > > >The light travels through the water on the train, through the glass, > > > >exits the glass and reaches the Observer on the train and the Observer > > > >on the embankment simultaneously. How far does the light travel to > > > >each Observer? > > > > 1 light year as far as the guy on the train is concerned, 1.25 light > > > years as far as the guy on the embankment is concerned. > > > > And therein lies the problem. > > > That is incorrect. The light is traveling relative to the water on the > > train. The light travels 1 light year to both Observers. > > > And therein lies your misunderstanding. > > Book worthy again!!!! > > Miguel Rios Einstein's train gedanken is modified so the water is at rest relative to the embankment. Lightning strikes occur in the water at A/A' and B/ B'. When determining how far the light travels to the Observer at M', does the Observer at M' measure to A' and B' or to A and B? The Observer at M' on the train measures to A and B and determines the lightning strikes were simultaneous just like the Observer at M does. The Observer at M' measuring to A' and B' in order to determine how far the light traveled to reach M' when the light is traveling through water which is at rest relative to the embankment is incorrect.
From: paparios on 17 Dec 2009 11:45
On 17 dic, 13:03, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 17, 10:57 am, "papar...(a)gmail.com" <papar...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Einstein's train gedanken is modified so the water is at rest relative > to the embankment. Lightning strikes occur in the water at A/A' and B/ > B'. When determining how far the light travels to the Observer at M', > does the Observer at M' measure to A' and B' or to A and B? > > The Observer at M' on the train measures to A and B and determines the > lightning strikes were simultaneous just like the Observer at M does. > > The Observer at M' measuring to A' and B' in order to determine how > far the light traveled to reach M' when the light is traveling through > water which is at rest relative to the embankment is incorrect. We are still waiting for you to fully understand and explain Einstein original gedanken and even point out errors or inconsistencies in his presentation, which in the relevant pharagraph says: "When we say that the lightning strokes A and B are simultaneous with respect to the embankment, we mean: the rays of light emitted at the places A and B, where the lightning occurs, meet each other at the mid- point M of the length A > B of the embankment. But the events A and B also correspond to positions A and B on the train. Let M' be the mid- point of the distance A > B on the travelling train. Just when the flashes of lightning occur, this point M' naturally coincides with the point M, but it moves towards the right in the diagram with the velocity v of the train. If an observer sitting in the position M in the train did not possess this velocity, then he would remain permanently at M, and the light rays emitted by the flashes of lightning A and B would reach him simultaneously, i.e. they would meet just where he is situated. Now in reality (considered with reference to the railway embankment) he is hastening towards the beam of light coming from B, whilst he is riding on ahead of the beam of light coming from A. Hence the observer will see the beam of light emitted from B earlier than he will see that emitted from A. Observers who take the railway train as their reference-body must therefore come to the conclusion that the lightning flash B took place earlier than the lightning flash A." Remember there are only TWO lightning strikes and the train and the embankment are located in the vacuum of deep space (away from gravitational effects and, of course without any water). Can you explain us why Special Relativity (starting from its two postulates) implies the relativity of simultaneity, described by this thought experiment? Miguel Rios |