Wonderful!
in [Physics]
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From: mpc755 on 16 Dec 2009 23:50 On Dec 16, 11:39 pm, GogoJF <jfgog...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Dec 16, 10:32 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 16, 11:26 pm, GogoJF <jfgog...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > On Dec 16, 10:09 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 16, 11:06 pm, GogoJF <jfgog...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Dec 16, 10:01 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 10:32 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 10:08 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > > > > > > > >On Dec 16, 8:34=A0pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, when > > > > > > > > >> >> it's still travelling through the train? > > > > > > > > >> >Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > > >> OK. Since the angle is so small we can ignore the small effects of > > > > > > > > >> sin/cos of it being different from 0/1. So... the platform observer will > > > > > > > > >> see the light on the train moving at either 1.25 c or 0.75 c > > > > > > > > >The platform observer does not 'see the light on the train'. That is > > > > > > > > >one of the biggest misconceptions of light. You don't watch light > > > > > > > > >propagate like a thrown baseball. What you 'see' is light when it hits > > > > > > > > >your eye. > > > > > > > > > That's why I added the 'dust' to the train. Some of the laser going from > > > > > > > > the back to the front would be scattered by the dust, so that the > > > > > > > > embankment observer could see the laser pulse propagate. > > > > > > > > But the light which is reflected by the dust is still going to travel > > > > > > > through the aether which is at rest relative to the embankment. You're > > > > > > > still not 'seeing the light propagate on the train'. What you are > > > > > > > 'seeing' is light reflected by dust particles traveling at 'c' > > > > > > > relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > > Or, to put it another way. A 1 light year long train, travelling at c/4. > > > > > > > > When the front of the train is 1/4 light year away, the rear of the train > > > > > > > > is 1 1/4 light year away. At that time, a laser is fired from the rear to > > > > > > > > the front. One year later, the front of the train reaches the embankment > > > > > > > > observer since it was travelling at c/4 and was 1/4 light year away. At > > > > > > > > the same time, the laser pulse reaches the front of the train since it was > > > > > > > > travelling a distance of 1 light year for one year. Therefore, as far as > > > > > > > > the trackside observer is concerned, the light travelled 1 1/4 light year > > > > > > > > in 1 year, or 1.25 c. > > > > > > > > Again, this is incorrect. In your gadenken, I'm assuming the aether is > > > > > > > at rest relative to the train. When the light reaches the Observer on > > > > > > > the embankment, the light has traveled from where the back of the > > > > > > > train *is*. The light has traveled 1 light year from where the back of > > > > > > > the train *is* to where the Observer on the embankment is. > > > > > > > > Since the aether is at rest relative to the train, where the lightning > > > > > > > strike occurred in three dimensional space relative to the Observer on > > > > > > > the embankment is meaningless. > > > > > > > > Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > I don't know how else to explain this but with flashes of light in > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > There is a round pool on the train. The side of the pool is made of > > > > > > > glass. There are Observers on the train with their faces pushed up > > > > > > > against the glass. > > > > > > > > There is an Observer on the embankment. > > > > > > > > A flash goes off in the middle of the pool. > > > > > > > > It just so happens when the flash travels through the water, travels > > > > > > > through the glass, and is about to reach the Observers on the train, > > > > > > > the pool is right next to the Observer on the embankment. > > > > > > > > The Observer on the embankment presses his face against the glass just > > > > > > > like the Observers on the train do. > > > > > > > > The light travels the same distance to ALL of the Observers. > > > > > > > > The light has traveled from where the center of the pool *is* to where > > > > > > > the Observers on the train *are* when the Observers on the train see > > > > > > > the light. > > > > > > > > The light has traveled from where the center of the pool *is* to where > > > > > > > the Observer on the embankment *is* when the Observer on the > > > > > > > embankment sees the light. > > > > > > > > The light has traveled relative to the water which is at rest relative > > > > > > > to the train. > > > > > > > > In your gadenken, since I am assuming the aether is at rest relative > > > > > > > to the train, the light has traveled at 'c' relative to the aether > > > > > > > which is at rest relative to the train. > > > > > > > > In you gadenken, if an Observer on the embankment and an Observer on > > > > > > > the train are standing side by side when the light reaches both of > > > > > > > them, the light has traveled the same distance to each of them because > > > > > > > the light is traveling relative to the aether, and besides the last > > > > > > > instant where the light is no longer on the train but on the > > > > > > > embankment right before it reaches the Observer on the embankment, the > > > > > > > light had traveled through the aether which is at rest relative to the > > > > > > > train. > > > > > > > I have a better gadenken. A modified version of your gadenken. > > > > > > > The 1 light year long train is full of water. > > > > > > > The laser is fired at the back of the train in the water. > > > > > > > The Observer at the front of the train has his face pushed up against > > > > > > a plate glass which separates them from the water. > > > > > > > Right when the light exits the glass and is about to reach the > > > > > > Observer on the train, an Observer on the embankment stands right next > > > > > > to the Observer on the train. > > > > > > > Now, obviously the train is moving 1/4 the speed of light, so the > > > > > > Observer on the embankment is in trouble, but right before the train > > > > > > hits the Observer on the embankment the light from the laser reaches > > > > > > both Observers. > > > > > > > The light has traveled the same distance through the water to both > > > > > > Observers. > > > > > > Well, I certainly like the way you carry on your conversation. > > > > > If I could only convince others light travels at 'c' relative to the > > > > aether we might actually get somewhere. > > > > The definition of c remains the relationship between the electrostatic > > > and electromagnetic measure. Since we have two proportions, that when > > > we divide one into the other, we derive c- then the first question > > > should be is "what is the base speed of the electrostatic measure"? > > > And the second "what is the base speed of the electromagnetic measure"? > > > 'c' is the speed at which waves propagate through the aether. > > what is the absolute speed of the ether? I don't know.
From: BURT on 17 Dec 2009 02:52 On Dec 16, 8:50 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 16, 11:39 pm, GogoJF <jfgog...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 10:32 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Dec 16, 11:26 pm, GogoJF <jfgog...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 16, 10:09 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Dec 16, 11:06 pm, GogoJF <jfgog...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 10:01 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 10:32 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Dec 16, 10:08 pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> writes: > > > > > > > > > >On Dec 16, 8:34=A0pm, moro...(a)world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> >> 1) What is the velocity of the light beam relative to the aether, when > > > > > > > > > >> >> it's still travelling through the train? > > > > > > > > > >> >Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > > > >> OK. Since the angle is so small we can ignore the small effects of > > > > > > > > > >> sin/cos of it being different from 0/1. So... the platform observer will > > > > > > > > > >> see the light on the train moving at either 1.25 c or 0.75 c > > > > > > > > > >The platform observer does not 'see the light on the train'. That is > > > > > > > > > >one of the biggest misconceptions of light. You don't watch light > > > > > > > > > >propagate like a thrown baseball. What you 'see' is light when it hits > > > > > > > > > >your eye. > > > > > > > > > > That's why I added the 'dust' to the train. Some of the laser going from > > > > > > > > > the back to the front would be scattered by the dust, so that the > > > > > > > > > embankment observer could see the laser pulse propagate. > > > > > > > > > But the light which is reflected by the dust is still going to travel > > > > > > > > through the aether which is at rest relative to the embankment. You're > > > > > > > > still not 'seeing the light propagate on the train'. What you are > > > > > > > > 'seeing' is light reflected by dust particles traveling at 'c' > > > > > > > > relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > > > Or, to put it another way. A 1 light year long train, travelling at c/4. > > > > > > > > > When the front of the train is 1/4 light year away, the rear of the train > > > > > > > > > is 1 1/4 light year away. At that time, a laser is fired from the rear to > > > > > > > > > the front. One year later, the front of the train reaches the embankment > > > > > > > > > observer since it was travelling at c/4 and was 1/4 light year away. At > > > > > > > > > the same time, the laser pulse reaches the front of the train since it was > > > > > > > > > travelling a distance of 1 light year for one year. Therefore, as far as > > > > > > > > > the trackside observer is concerned, the light travelled 1 1/4 light year > > > > > > > > > in 1 year, or 1.25 c. > > > > > > > > > Again, this is incorrect. In your gadenken, I'm assuming the aether is > > > > > > > > at rest relative to the train. When the light reaches the Observer on > > > > > > > > the embankment, the light has traveled from where the back of the > > > > > > > > train *is*. The light has traveled 1 light year from where the back of > > > > > > > > the train *is* to where the Observer on the embankment is. > > > > > > > > > Since the aether is at rest relative to the train, where the lightning > > > > > > > > strike occurred in three dimensional space relative to the Observer on > > > > > > > > the embankment is meaningless. > > > > > > > > > Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether. > > > > > > > > > I don't know how else to explain this but with flashes of light in > > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > There is a round pool on the train. The side of the pool is made of > > > > > > > > glass. There are Observers on the train with their faces pushed up > > > > > > > > against the glass. > > > > > > > > > There is an Observer on the embankment. > > > > > > > > > A flash goes off in the middle of the pool. > > > > > > > > > It just so happens when the flash travels through the water, travels > > > > > > > > through the glass, and is about to reach the Observers on the train, > > > > > > > > the pool is right next to the Observer on the embankment. > > > > > > > > > The Observer on the embankment presses his face against the glass just > > > > > > > > like the Observers on the train do. > > > > > > > > > The light travels the same distance to ALL of the Observers.. > > > > > > > > > The light has traveled from where the center of the pool *is* to where > > > > > > > > the Observers on the train *are* when the Observers on the train see > > > > > > > > the light. > > > > > > > > > The light has traveled from where the center of the pool *is* to where > > > > > > > > the Observer on the embankment *is* when the Observer on the > > > > > > > > embankment sees the light. > > > > > > > > > The light has traveled relative to the water which is at rest relative > > > > > > > > to the train. > > > > > > > > > In your gadenken, since I am assuming the aether is at rest relative > > > > > > > > to the train, the light has traveled at 'c' relative to the aether > > > > > > > > which is at rest relative to the train. > > > > > > > > > In you gadenken, if an Observer on the embankment and an Observer on > > > > > > > > the train are standing side by side when the light reaches both of > > > > > > > > them, the light has traveled the same distance to each of them because > > > > > > > > the light is traveling relative to the aether, and besides the last > > > > > > > > instant where the light is no longer on the train but on the > > > > > > > > embankment right before it reaches the Observer on the embankment, the > > > > > > > > light had traveled through the aether which is at rest relative to the > > > > > > > > train. > > > > > > > > I have a better gadenken. A modified version of your gadenken.. > > > > > > > > The 1 light year long train is full of water. > > > > > > > > The laser is fired at the back of the train in the water. > > > > > > > > The Observer at the front of the train has his face pushed up against > > > > > > > a plate glass which separates them from the water. > > > > > > > > Right when the light exits the glass and is about to reach the > > > > > > > Observer on the train, an Observer on the embankment stands right next > > > > > > > to the Observer on the train. > > > > > > > > Now, obviously the train is moving 1/4 the speed of light, so the > > > > > > > Observer on the embankment is in trouble, but right before the train > > > > > > > hits the Observer on the embankment the light from the laser reaches > > > > > > > both Observers. > > > > > > > > The light has traveled the same distance through the water to both > > > > > > > Observers. > > > > > > > Well, I certainly like the way you carry on your conversation. > > > > > > If I could only convince others light travels at 'c' relative to the > > > > > aether we might actually get somewhere. > > > > > The definition of c remains the relationship between the electrostatic > > > > and electromagnetic measure. Since we have two proportions, that when > > > > we divide one into the other, we derive c- then the first question > > > > should be is "what is the base speed of the electrostatic measure"? > > > > And the second "what is the base speed of the electromagnetic measure"? > > > > 'c' is the speed at which waves propagate through the aether. > > > what is the absolute speed of the ether? > > I don't know.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Time flows at below a slow C. Gravity slows time by a slow C. And energy movement slows time below the slow c. Time is C and ineverse Gamma for its two rates that come together. Mitch Raemsch
From: paparios on 17 Dec 2009 06:22 On 17 dic, 01:50, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 16, 11:39 pm, GogoJF <jfgog...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > 'c' is the speed at which waves propagate through the aether. > > > what is the absolute speed of the ether? > > I don't know Book worthy!!!!! Miguel Rios
From: mpc755 on 17 Dec 2009 09:50 On Dec 16, 5:01 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 16, 4:46 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 16, 2:14 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Dec 16, 3:09 pm, PD <thedraperfam...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Dec 16, 12:51 pm, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Dec 16, 11:30 am, mpc755 <mpc...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Ok, so let's not talk about frames of reference. The train is 100 > > > > > > billion light years away from the embankment. Is it physically > > > > > > possible for the light from lightning strikes at A' and B' to reach M' > > > > > > simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M' on the train and is > > > > > > it physically possible for the light from lightning strikes at A and B > > > > > > to reach M simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M if the > > > > > > train and the embankment are 100 billion light years apart and A and B > > > > > > are 1 mile each from M and A' and B' are one mile each from M'? > > > > > > Let's assume logic prevails and if the train and the embankment are > > > > > 100 billion light years apart, light from lightning strikes at A' and > > > > > B' can reach M' simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M' and > > > > > light from lightning strikes at A and B can reach M simultaneously as > > > > > determined by an Observer at M. > > > > > > So, when does SR 'kick in'? > > > > > > For some reason, in SR, in my animation, the train and the embankment > > > > > are too close to each other even though both exist in their own > > > > > regions of three dimensional space: > > > > > You apparently don't understand the train and the embankment scenario > > > > that Einstein was proposing. > > > > In that scenario, there are only TWO lightning strikes, not FOUR. > > > > > And you are wrong in thinking there are two frames that live in > > > > isolated regions of three-dimensional space. You have the impression > > > > that the train frame is the space inside the train and the embankment > > > > frame is the space outside the train. That is not what a frame of > > > > reference is. > > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyWTaXMElUk > > > > > > For some reason, in SR, in my animation, the light from the lightning > > > > > strikes at A' and B' cannot reach M' simultaneously as determined by > > > > > an Observer at M' AND the light from the lightning strikes at A and B > > > > > cannot reach M simultaneously as determined by an Observer at M. > > > > > In SR's train and embankment scenario, there are only TWO lightning > > > > strikes, not four. > > > > In SR's train and embankment scenario? > > > > You mean in Einstein's train and embankment scenario. > > > > I'm saying the SR interpretation of my animation where there are four > > > lightning strikes. > > > Your animation -- which has the strikes at A' and B' occurring > > simultaneously in the rest frame of A, B, and M -- also has the light > > from those strikes arriving at M' simultaneously. This does not happen > > in nature, experimentally. > > Incorrect. If you perform the experiment where water is at rest > relative to the embankment and water is at rest relative to the train > and the embankment and the train occupy different regions of three > dimensional space, then my animation is correct. It doesn't matter how > close the train is to the embankment, as long as the water is at rest > relative to both the train and the embankment, the light from A and B > will reach M simultaneously and the light from A' and B' will reach M' > simultaneously, in nature. > My animation is correct for the light traveling from A and B reaching M simultaneously and the light traveling from A' and B' reaching M' simultaneously for ANY medium in which the medium is at rest relative to the train and the medium is at rest relative to the embankment. Now, let's go back to Einstein's train gedanken for a minute but instead of the light from the lightning strike at A/A' and the light from the lightning strike at B/B' traveling through the aether, the light from the lightning strikes travels through water which is at rest relative to the embankment. If the water the light from the lightning strikes travels through is at rest relative to the embankment, where do you measure to when determining how far the light traveled to the Observer at M'? You measure to the marks at A and B. If the water the light from the lightning strikes travels through was instead at rest relative to the train, where do you measure to when determining how far the the light traveled to the Observer at M? You measure to the marks at A' and B'. You need to know the state of the water when determining how far the light travels to M and M'. You need to know the state of ANY medium when determining how far the light travels to M and M'. Light travels at 'c' relative to the aether.
From: Michael Moroney on 17 Dec 2009 10:14
mpc755 <mpc755(a)gmail.com> writes: >I have a better gadenken. A modified version of your gadenken. >The 1 light year long train is full of water. >The laser is fired at the back of the train in the water. >The Observer at the front of the train has his face pushed up against >a plate glass which separates them from the water. >Right when the light exits the glass and is about to reach the >Observer on the train, an Observer on the embankment stands right next >to the Observer on the train. >Now, obviously the train is moving 1/4 the speed of light, so the >Observer on the embankment is in trouble, but right before the train >hits the Observer on the embankment the light from the laser reaches >both Observers. >The light has traveled the same distance through the water to both >Observers. The light has travelled 1.25 light years in 1 year in the frame of the embankment. No matter how you twist and turn things, you have light travelling faster than the speed of light in some frames by 'hitching a ride' on something fast, even if it doesn't in the frame of the train. Since experimental evidence shows that it never happens for light signals to travel faster than the speed of light in any frame, your aether theory is automatically wrong. For it to be correct, it has to correctly predict known observations. I could come up with a super grand unified theory linking gravity to the other forces, but if it predicts lead weights on the floor will go flying in the air, it is automatically wrong. Period. Same with any theory that has light moving faster than the speed of light (in any frame, even if not in all frames). Consider what happens if there is a beam splitter on board the train that sends half the beam down the train as before, and half the beam along the track parallel to the train. You have the contradiction of the light beam at two different speeds. |