Fwd: Re: Kde 3.5 ...
in [Debian]
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From: Lisi on 9 May 2010 11:10 On Sunday 09 May 2010 15:30:35 Sjoerd Hardeman wrote: > > Perhaps you should read Dotan's last two emails to me (especially the > > last one) before complaining about my complaint. > > Well, that's kind of hard since they are sent to you. Unless you want me > to hack your mailbox ;) > > > And my crime?? Â For which you too clearly feel that I should be subjected > > to the unpleasant bullying in emails direct to me? Â I use KDE 3, but do > > not intend to use KDE 4. > > As far as I have seen the mails of Dotan on this list (the one I'm > following), he is currently collecting issues with KDE4 and filing the > to the devs. I have already forwarded them to the list and would gladly send them on to you if you were to ask me to do so. But list policy is to stay on list unless requested to do otherwise. ;-) The last one in particular was personal, rude and unpleasant. He is not simply <quote> > collecting issues with KDE4 and filing the > to the devs.</quote> He is doing that, but in addition he is bullying people most unpleasantly if they do not do his bidding. I do not use KDE 4 and have no wish to do so. The only thing I could have done differently (other than not send that very short and mild complaint) is bow down to Dotan and agree that I have no right to dislike KDE 4, because he does not find my reasons valid. I tried to end this by simply not replying, but even that did not rescue me - he sent another email, to which I again did not reply. What more could I do, other than be very rude myself, to make him go away? I do not have to give him reasons for my dislike. I dislike KDE 4 and do not use it. That is surely my right? I dislike fennel. No-one tries to force-feed me with it! And surely I have no duty to help Dotan in his single minded ambition to impose KDE 4 on all the world? Many of us do not use it. Several people have been very helpful in sending me comments (_on_ list) on other possibilities. If he is truly doing what he is doing from altruistic motives, then surely he must only "help" (help????) those who want his help, not bully those who don't. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201005091602.50128.lisi.reisz(a)gmail.com
From: Sjoerd Hardeman on 9 May 2010 11:20 Op 09-05-10 17:02, Lisi schreef: > On Sunday 09 May 2010 15:30:35 Sjoerd Hardeman wrote: >>> Perhaps you should read Dotan's last two emails to me (especially the >>> last one) before complaining about my complaint. >> >> Well, that's kind of hard since they are sent to you. Unless you want me >> to hack your mailbox ;) >> >>> And my crime?? For which you too clearly feel that I should be subjected >>> to the unpleasant bullying in emails direct to me? I use KDE 3, but do >>> not intend to use KDE 4. >> >> As far as I have seen the mails of Dotan on this list (the one I'm >> following), he is currently collecting issues with KDE4 and filing the >> to the devs. > > I have already forwarded them to the list and would gladly send them on to you > if you were to ask me to do so. But list policy is to stay on list unless > requested to do otherwise. ;-) Then I have seen them. Yes, he's a bit persistent, that's for sure. But really bullying? Anyway, it is not for me to judge if you feel bullied. And as I hopefully made clear, the "manners" comment was surely not just for you. It's just an attempt to keep the discussion on KDE instead of a flame war or something similarly unpleasant. > > He is doing that, but in addition he is bullying people most unpleasantly if > they do not do his bidding. I do not use KDE 4 and have no wish to do so. That's surely your right. > > The only thing I could have done differently (other than not send that very > short and mild complaint) is bow down to Dotan and agree that I have no right > to dislike KDE 4, because he does not find my reasons valid. I tried to end > this by simply not replying, but even that did not rescue me - he sent > another email, to which I again did not reply. What more could I do, other > than be very rude myself, to make him go away? Well, some of your reasons weren't valid. There were several "this doesn't work"-claims which just work, at least on my testing install. Which does not mean that there are no reasons why kde4 is good for you. The problem I had with some of the comments were that they were unfair. That something doesn't do as it did somewhere else is not necessarily a bad thing. Anyway, let's close this discussion here. I surely agree that KDE4 has is strengths and weaknesses, and based on your daily routine and preferences this can be a problem. As with any other DE. I don't like gnome, which doesn't mean that gnome is bad. It's just bad for me. Sjoerd
From: Florian Kulzer on 9 May 2010 11:40 On Sun, May 09, 2010 at 15:00:31 +0100, Lisi wrote: [...] > I do *not* ask otherwise and Dotan has been sending long, rude, unpleasant > emails direct to me. That is what I am complaining about. On-list complaints about unsolicited CC'ing are also against the code of conduct, so you are at least as "rude" as Dotan is, and you are "bullying" all of us to read what should be a private complaint. Pot, meet kettle. > As I said above, > *I* have been getting them from Dotan, as you correctly state: "*Lisi* > shreef ..... *I* have been getting them." According to list policy I should > not be getting them. In addition, the last one was sent to the KDE list (to > which I do not subscribe) and not to this, which is the list with the thread. People sometimes make mistakes about CC'ing, especially when they are having what is essentially the same discussion on two different mailing lists. There is a reason why the rule to stop public complaints about CC'ing has been added to the code of conduct; Joey Hess has posted an informative commentary: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2010/03/msg01846.html > Perhaps you should read Dotan's last two emails to me (especially the last > one) before complaining about my complaint. I do not see what is so rude about these emails; I have the impression that Dotan is genuinely interested, if maybe a bit overeager, to make sure at all possible usability issues of KDE4 are addressed or at least documented on the upstream BTS. If you first complain about the usability of KDE4 and then you are offended when people who want to improve the usability of KDE4 ask you about details, then maybe you should not have complained publicly in the first place. What did you hope to achieve with your complaints if you are not willing to work constructively on the resolution of the problems that you experience? > And my crime?? For which you too clearly feel that I should be subjected to > the unpleasant bullying in emails direct to me? I use KDE 3, but do not > intend to use KDE 4. That is fine, of course, but why do you bother the list with your grievances if your mind is already made up and you are not willing to work with the people who care about making KDE4 better? Do you just want to use the list as your personal agony aunt? -- Regards, | Florian | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100509152040.GA1286(a)bavaria.univ-lyon1.fr
From: Mike Bird on 9 May 2010 12:10 On Sun May 9 2010 06:18:27 Sjoerd Hardeman wrote: > It is a list rule to reply only to list *unless asked otherwise*. In > this case, Dotan asks otherwise, so what's the problem. That is factually incorrect. Dotan has replied to me+list on several occasions without permission. From the comments here I believe he annoys others similarly. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201005090906.14455.mgb-debian(a)yosemite.net
From: Mike Bird on 9 May 2010 12:20
On Sun May 9 2010 08:20:40 Florian Kulzer wrote: (snip) > That is fine, of course, but why do you bother the list with your > grievances if your mind is already made up and you are not willing to > work with the people who care about making KDE4 better? Do you just want > to use the list as your personal agony aunt? This is a Debian list, not a KDE list. A lot of people care about not making Debian worse, and are thereafter taking the time and making the effort to present the case for not deleting KDE 3.5 from Debian. While the KDE devs have gone on to new and sillier pastures, KDE 3.5 is apparently maintained at least by the Trinity project and it is possible that either Trinity or other solutions may yet be developed that will avoid the planned harm to Debian. This is a worthwhile discussion for a Debian list. I would suggest, however, that follow ups if any be directed to the more focused forum of debian-kde, to which I have cross-posted this message. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201005090918.06704.mgb-debian(a)yosemite.net |