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From: Michael S on 1 Feb 2010 19:56
On Feb 2, 2:02 am, Antti <antti.luk...(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 1:41 am, Michael S <already5cho...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 29, 7:11 pm, Antti <antti.luk...(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > but.. DATA2MEM is MUCH more important (yeah for the customers) then
> > > the memory editor
> > > and well Altera has no data2mem possibility at all, what is real
> > > problem.
>
> > What exactly data2mem can do, but quartus_cdb+quartus_asm can't?
> > Except, of course, that quartus_cdb needs a whole db directory, which,
> > at least for me, doesn't sound like a serious obstacle.
> > Or do you feel that quartus_cdb is too high level?
>
> data2mem is standalone tool that doesnt need ANY design files
> except final BIT file and .text BMM file.
>
Altera .sof file simply doesn't contain enough of information to make
something like data2mem possible.

> any tool flows that use DESIGN intermediate files (Altera and Lattice
> flow)
> are not OK.

I know very little about X tools but I am pretty sure that the input
to data2mem _is_ a design intermediate file, just in more compact and
probably more specialized format than Altera db directory.

>
> if a company is serious about soft-core processor than that company
> should offer data2mem type of functionality.
>
> too PITA Altera does not listen.
>
> Antti

In Altera approach I don't like that in order to make quartus_cdb
+quartus_asm work I need to install a full Quartus. What is even
worse, I think quartus_asm requires non-free license.
Those are real problems that shows that Altera fails to understand
that in most organizations FPGA developement and software developement
for FPGA-hosted soft cores is done by different people with different
sets of skills and that developers on the software side hate to care
about additional set of tools, esp. when these tools require quirky
licensing,
However I don't care in the slightest whether the input to my tool is
a single file or the whole database consisting of multiple files and
directories. That is, I don't care as long as I can easily move the
database in question from place to place within a computer or between
different computers.

From: Antti on 1 Feb 2010 23:55
On Feb 2, 2:56 am, Michael S <already5cho...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2:02 am, Antti <antti.luk...(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 1:41 am, Michael S <already5cho...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 29, 7:11 pm, Antti <antti.luk...(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > but.. DATA2MEM is MUCH more important (yeah for the customers) then
> > > > the memory editor
> > > > and well Altera has no data2mem possibility at all, what is real
> > > > problem.
>
> > > What exactly data2mem can do, but quartus_cdb+quartus_asm can't?
> > > Except, of course, that quartus_cdb needs a whole db directory, which,
> > > at least for me, doesn't sound like a serious obstacle.
> > > Or do you feel that quartus_cdb is too high level?
>
> > data2mem is standalone tool that doesnt need ANY design files
> > except final BIT file and .text BMM file.
>
> Altera .sof file simply doesn't contain enough of information to make
> something like data2mem possible.
>
> > any tool flows that use DESIGN intermediate files (Altera  and Lattice
> > flow)
> > are not OK.
>
> I know very little about X tools but I am pretty sure that the input
> to data2mem _is_  a design intermediate file, just in more compact and
> probably more specialized format than Altera db directory.
>
>
>
> > if a company is serious about soft-core processor than that company
> > should offer data2mem type of functionality.
>
> > too PITA Altera does not listen.
>
> > Antti
>
> In Altera approach I don't like that in order to make quartus_cdb
> +quartus_asm work I need to install a full Quartus. What is even
> worse, I think quartus_asm requires non-free license.
> Those are real problems that shows that Altera fails to understand
> that in most organizations FPGA developement and software developement
> for FPGA-hosted soft cores is done by different people with different
> sets of skills and that developers on the software side hate to care
> about additional set of tools, esp. when these tools require quirky
> licensing,
> However I don't care in the slightest whether the input to my tool is
> a single file or the whole database consisting of multiple files and
> directories. That is,  I don't care as long as I can easily move the
> database in question from place to place within a computer or between
> different computers.

if you DO NOT KNOW, then DO NOT TALK.

data2mem uses FINAL bitstream only no interim files.
you can take the BIT file and configure the FPGA
then you can take the same BIT file, feed it into data2mem
and configure an FPGA

this is not possible with Altera or Lattice tools which both
require design files (not final configuration file) to work

Antti



From: Antti on 2 Feb 2010 00:25
On Feb 2, 2:56 am, Michael S <already5cho...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2:02 am, Antti <antti.luk...(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 1:41 am, Michael S <already5cho...(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 29, 7:11 pm, Antti <antti.luk...(a)googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > but.. DATA2MEM is MUCH more important (yeah for the customers) then
> > > > the memory editor
> > > > and well Altera has no data2mem possibility at all, what is real
> > > > problem.
>
> > > What exactly data2mem can do, but quartus_cdb+quartus_asm can't?
> > > Except, of course, that quartus_cdb needs a whole db directory, which,
> > > at least for me, doesn't sound like a serious obstacle.
> > > Or do you feel that quartus_cdb is too high level?
>
> > data2mem is standalone tool that doesnt need ANY design files
> > except final BIT file and .text BMM file.
>
> Altera .sof file simply doesn't contain enough of information to make
> something like data2mem possible.
>
> > any tool flows that use DESIGN intermediate files (Altera  and Lattice
> > flow)
> > are not OK.
>
> I know very little about X tools but I am pretty sure that the input
> to data2mem _is_  a design intermediate file, just in more compact and
> probably more specialized format than Altera db directory.
>
>
>
> > if a company is serious about soft-core processor than that company
> > should offer data2mem type of functionality.
>
> > too PITA Altera does not listen.
>
> > Antti
>
> In Altera approach I don't like that in order to make quartus_cdb
> +quartus_asm work I need to install a full Quartus. What is even
> worse, I think quartus_asm requires non-free license.
> Those are real problems that shows that Altera fails to understand
> that in most organizations FPGA developement and software developement
> for FPGA-hosted soft cores is done by different people with different
> sets of skills and that developers on the software side hate to care
> about additional set of tools, esp. when these tools require quirky
> licensing,
> However I don't care in the slightest whether the input to my tool is
> a single file or the whole database consisting of multiple files and
> directories. That is,  I don't care as long as I can easily move the
> database in question from place to place within a computer or between
> different computers.

Hi, SOF file or RBT file could be used the same BIT file is used.
there is no technical problem with that.

the BIT file does also not include the BRAM mapping information in it
this is supplied with separate TEXT file that simple tells the
instance
name to X Y location mapping to the primitives.

similar tool for Altera and Lattice WOULD be possible.

maybe you do not care, but the need to have FULL QUARTUS
installed and and to move ALL DATABASE
is something much different than having

1) a final BIT file
2) bram mapping text file
3) small commandline utility to update the BIT file

Antti





From: Petter Gustad on 2 Feb 2010 03:58
General Schvantzkoph <schvantzkoph(a)yahoo.com> writes:

>> just a small decision to make: open up Xilinx USB Cable API, that is all
>> that Xilinx would have todo. Yes, this also takes resources as it may

I would rather see some standard generic API as I've made an Ethernet
based programmer. I can program Xilinx and Altera FPGA's,
microcontrollers, flash, etc. directly or indirectly using this
programmer, but I can't run SignalTap and ChipScope.

Petter
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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