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From: John Fields on 8 Jul 2010 06:03 On Wed, 7 Jul 2010 17:15:56 -0700, dplatt(a)radagast.org (Dave Platt) wrote: >In article <s3u936pei9m8avir637dp9njoan90tmkil(a)4ax.com>, >John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > >>And then, because of the inevitable losses at ordinary temperatures, >>the sloshing about will cause decay. >> >>But what about if the tank was superconductive? > >Even if the tank wiring is superconductive, it seems to me that the >alternating current flow is going to result in emission of energy in >the form of E/M radiation, no? There's going to be some amount of >"radiation resistance", when the wiring (having a non-zero physical >size) acts as a small loop antenna and lets out a chirp of RF. > >>The real magic is in reactance, which allows charge to be freely >>transferred, back and forth, between capacitance and inductance, with >>resistance determining the limit. > >True... but you have to include "radiation resistance" in this, as >well as the usual dissipative-into-heat resistance in the wiring. --- True. :-)
From: John Fields on 8 Jul 2010 08:40 On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:54:26 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 18:57:11 -0500, John Fields ><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > >>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:00:12 -0700, Jim Thompson >><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >> >> >>>Larkin vaguely started his thread with no mention of an inductor >>>whatsoever, then added the inductor and claimed "sloshing" forever. > >I said that certain posts were untrue. Which they were. > >> >>--- >>Yeah, well, Larkin claims a lot of things are absolutely true which >>break down around zero and infinity. > >Cite? --- Well, the one that always brings a grin to my chops is: "Latching relays have infinite gain." There are others, but they slip my mind and it's just not worth the effort to find them. --- >>>What-a-pile of BS... >>>use real switches and real inductors and real >>>capacitors. >> >>--- >>Indeed. > >It helps to understand ideal circuits before you consider real >circuits. The ideals are the limiting cases. You CAN transfer charge >between equal value caps without loss of charge, and you can more >generally transfer energy between caps without loss; just use an >inductor. > >For those who dislike theory, Spice will slosh charge around between >two caps for millions of cycles. Try it. --- OK Version 4 SHEET 1 880 680 WIRE -384 48 -496 48 WIRE -256 48 -304 48 WIRE -224 48 -256 48 WIRE -128 48 -144 48 WIRE 16 48 -48 48 WIRE 128 48 96 48 WIRE -496 144 -496 48 WIRE -256 192 -256 48 WIRE 128 192 128 48 WIRE -368 304 -368 96 WIRE -112 304 -112 96 WIRE -496 400 -496 224 WIRE -368 400 -368 384 WIRE -368 400 -496 400 WIRE -320 400 -320 96 WIRE -320 400 -368 400 WIRE -256 400 -256 256 WIRE -256 400 -320 400 WIRE -112 400 -112 384 WIRE -112 400 -256 400 WIRE -64 400 -64 96 WIRE -64 400 -112 400 WIRE 128 400 128 256 WIRE 128 400 -64 400 WIRE -496 480 -496 400 FLAG -496 480 0 SYMBOL voltage -496 128 R0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V2 SYMATTR Value 12 SYMBOL voltage -368 288 R0 WINDOW 0 -53 5 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -242 110 Invisible 0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V3 SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 1 0 1E-6 1E-6 .01) SYMBOL sw -288 48 M270 WINDOW 0 32 15 Left 0 WINDOW 3 32 44 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName S1 SYMBOL sw -32 48 M270 WINDOW 0 32 15 Left 0 WINDOW 3 32 44 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName S2 SYMBOL cap -272 192 R0 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 1e-7 SYMBOL ind 0 64 R270 WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 0 WINDOW 3 5 56 VBottom 0 SYMATTR InstName L1 SYMATTR Value 1e-3 SYMBOL cap 112 192 R0 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value 1e-7 SYMBOL voltage -112 288 R0 WINDOW 0 -53 5 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -242 110 Invisible 0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 1 .02 1E-6 1E-6) SYMBOL res -128 32 R90 WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0 WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0 SYMATTR InstName R1 SYMATTR Value .69 TEXT -480 424 Left 0 !.model SW SW(Ron=1e-6 Roff=100Meg Vt=0.5Vh=0) TEXT -482 456 Left 0 !.tran .1 With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ 22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance in the circuit. I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays to essentially zero. Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of cycles".
From: AM on 8 Jul 2010 09:13 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > > > >With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ >22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 >which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance >in the circuit. > >I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >to essentially zero. > >Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >cycles". Which proves that something is lost, or the process has a cost, as each cycle is decaying. It requires 'work' to 'cast' the electrons 'across' the face of the plates. :-) Kind of like playing "Trouble". The surface gets crowded with electrons and a few get lost when the pressures bump around.
From: John Larkin on 8 Jul 2010 10:00 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:13:53 -0700, AM <thisthatandtheother(a)beherenow.org> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields ><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >>With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ >>22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 >>which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance >>in the circuit. >> >>I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >>back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >>circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >>to essentially zero. >> >>Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >>a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >>cycles". > > > Which proves that something is lost, or the process has a cost, as each >cycle is decaying. > Which also demonstrates that, when he really tries, JF can use Spice to break aby circuit he chooses to break. What's shocking is that JT and JF need to use Spice to analyze something as EE101-basic as this, and then manage to get things wrong. John
From: John Fields on 8 Jul 2010 10:23
On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:54:26 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 18:57:11 -0500, John Fields >><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:00:12 -0700, Jim Thompson >>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Larkin vaguely started his thread with no mention of an inductor >>>>whatsoever, then added the inductor and claimed "sloshing" forever. >> >>I said that certain posts were untrue. Which they were. >> >>> >>>--- >>>Yeah, well, Larkin claims a lot of things are absolutely true which >>>break down around zero and infinity. >> >>Cite? > >--- >Well, the one that always brings a grin to my chops is: "Latching >relays have infinite gain." > >There are others, but they slip my mind and it's just not worth the >effort to find them. >--- > >>>>What-a-pile of BS... >>>>use real switches and real inductors and real >>>>capacitors. >>> >>>--- >>>Indeed. >> >>It helps to understand ideal circuits before you consider real >>circuits. The ideals are the limiting cases. You CAN transfer charge >>between equal value caps without loss of charge, and you can more >>generally transfer energy between caps without loss; just use an >>inductor. >> >>For those who dislike theory, Spice will slosh charge around between >>two caps for millions of cycles. Try it. > >--- >OK --- Oops... This is what I meant: Version 4 SHEET 1 880 680 WIRE -336 80 -384 80 WIRE -224 80 -272 80 WIRE -128 80 -224 80 WIRE -16 80 -48 80 WIRE 96 80 64 80 WIRE -224 192 -224 80 WIRE 96 192 96 80 WIRE -384 288 -384 80 WIRE -112 288 -112 128 WIRE -384 400 -384 368 WIRE -224 400 -224 256 WIRE -224 400 -384 400 WIRE -112 400 -112 368 WIRE -112 400 -224 400 WIRE -64 400 -64 128 WIRE -64 400 -112 400 WIRE 96 400 96 256 WIRE 96 400 -64 400 WIRE -384 480 -384 400 FLAG -384 480 0 SYMBOL sw -32 80 M270 WINDOW 0 32 15 Left 0 WINDOW 3 32 44 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName S2 SYMBOL cap -240 192 R0 WINDOW 0 -44 35 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -42 62 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName C1 SYMATTR Value 1e-7 SYMBOL ind -32 96 R270 WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 0 WINDOW 3 5 56 VBottom 0 SYMATTR InstName L1 SYMATTR Value 1e-3 SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=.7 SYMBOL cap 80 192 R0 WINDOW 0 -37 33 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -40 61 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName C2 SYMATTR Value 1e-7 SYMBOL voltage -112 272 R0 WINDOW 0 -53 5 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -242 110 Invisible 0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V1 SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 12 .012 1E-6 1E-6) SYMBOL diode -336 96 R270 WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 0 WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 0 SYMATTR InstName D1 SYMATTR Value 1N4148 SYMBOL voltage -384 272 R0 WINDOW 0 -53 5 Left 0 WINDOW 3 -242 110 Invisible 0 WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 SYMATTR InstName V2 SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 12.3 0 1E-6 1e-6 .001) TEXT -376 424 Left 0 !.model SW SW(Ron=1e-6 Roff=100Meg Vt=6 Vh=0) TEXT -376 456 Left 0 !.tran 0 .1 .002 --- >With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ >22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 >which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance >in the circuit. > >I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >to essentially zero. > >Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >cycles". |