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From: John Larkin on 8 Jul 2010 11:47 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:23:18 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields ><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > >>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:54:26 -0700, John Larkin >><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 18:57:11 -0500, John Fields >>><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >>> >>>>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:00:12 -0700, Jim Thompson >>>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Larkin vaguely started his thread with no mention of an inductor >>>>>whatsoever, then added the inductor and claimed "sloshing" forever. >>> >>>I said that certain posts were untrue. Which they were. >>> >>>> >>>>--- >>>>Yeah, well, Larkin claims a lot of things are absolutely true which >>>>break down around zero and infinity. >>> >>>Cite? >> >>--- >>Well, the one that always brings a grin to my chops is: "Latching >>relays have infinite gain." >> >>There are others, but they slip my mind and it's just not worth the >>effort to find them. >>--- >> >>>>>What-a-pile of BS... >>>>>use real switches and real inductors and real >>>>>capacitors. >>>> >>>>--- >>>>Indeed. >>> >>>It helps to understand ideal circuits before you consider real >>>circuits. The ideals are the limiting cases. You CAN transfer charge >>>between equal value caps without loss of charge, and you can more >>>generally transfer energy between caps without loss; just use an >>>inductor. >>> >>>For those who dislike theory, Spice will slosh charge around between >>>two caps for millions of cycles. Try it. >> >>--- >>OK > >--- >Oops... Remember what Miss Denton said: Check Your Work! John
From: John Fields on 8 Jul 2010 12:00 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 08:35:15 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:36:26 -0500, John Fields ><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > >>On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:13:53 -0700, AM >><thisthatandtheother(a)beherenow.org> wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields >>><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ >>>>22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 >>>>which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance >>>>in the circuit. >>>> >>>>I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >>>>back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >>>>circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >>>>to essentially zero. >>>> >>>>Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >>>>a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >>>>cycles". >>> >>> >>> Which proves that something is lost, or the process has a cost, as each >>>cycle is decaying. >>> >>> It requires 'work' to 'cast' the electrons 'across' the face of the >>>plates. :-) >>> >>> Kind of like playing "Trouble". The surface gets crowded with >>>electrons and a few get lost when the pressures bump around. >> >>--- >>Mostly it's the resistance of the choke which causes the decay. >> >>Right-click on the choke and then clear the box that says "series >>resistance" and run the sim. >> >>Surprise! >> >> >>JF > >What happens? Does it oscillate for millions of cycles? --- Don't ask me, I might confuse you with a reply you don't want to understand. Instead, just run the sim and find out for yourself. --- >In fact, it oscillates for millions of cycles even when the Q is 200. >Eventually Spice will run out of floating-point precision, but that's >just Spice. --- And in the real world you'll run into noise before you hit millions of cycles, but that's just the real world. From earlier: >>>>I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >>>>back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >>>>circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >>>>to essentially zero. what is it you don't understand about "essentially zero"?
From: Jim Thompson on 8 Jul 2010 12:04 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 08:43:26 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: [snip] > > YOU DON'T NEED SPICE TO UNDERSTAND CIRCUITS THIS SIMPLE. > >John You seem to ;-) You need to learn to set up LTspice without all its simulation speed-ups in place... then you can see reality instead of ideality. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama isn't going to raise your taxes...it's Bush' fault: Not re- newing the Bush tax cuts will increase the bottom tier rate by 50%
From: AM on 8 Jul 2010 12:06 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 08:32:12 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >basic R-L-C I thought you said that you removed the R.
From: John Fields on 8 Jul 2010 12:06
On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 08:43:26 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >How in the world could you post anything that wrong? --- What did you fing wrong with it that wasn't fixed in version 2? --- >If you actually >ran it, and accepted the results, well, there's nothing polite I can >say. --- You, polite??? Well, that's the best laugh I've had this morning! Thanks. --- >So let me say this as quietly as I can: > > YOU DON'T NEED SPICE TO UNDERSTAND CIRCUITS THIS SIMPLE. --- IT'S NICE TO HAVE THOUGH, IN ORDER TO EASILY SHOW YOU UP FOR THE BULLSHITTER YOU ARE. JF |