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From: Jim Thompson on 7 Jul 2010 12:09 On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:50:50 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: >On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:18:12 +1000, Adrian Jansen <adrian(a)qq.vv.net> >wrote: > >> >>Jim Thompson wrote: [snip] >>> >>> Depends on the definition of "depends" :-) >>> >>> "Charge" IS conserved. So if you transfer Q from C1 to C2 >>> >>> >>> C1*V1 == C2*V2 >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >>If you conserve energy, then you must have >> >>C1*V1^2 = C2*V2^2 > >Right. If you dump all the energy from one charged cap into another, >discharged, cap of a different value, and do it efficiently, charge is >not conserved. > >John > > John says, "...charge is not conserved." Newbies are invited to Google on "conservation of charge". (AND run the math problem I previously posted.) John is so full of it I'd bet his eyes are brown ;-) Unfortunately, Adrian Jansen mis-states the results as well :-( ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama: A reincarnation of Nixon, narcissistically posing in politically-correct black-face, but with fewer scruples.
From: Jim Thompson on 7 Jul 2010 12:28 On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:59:58 -0700, John Larkin <jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: [snip] > >Billiard balls roll, which means that at the instant of contact there >is a transverse scraping, like a clutch engaging, which wastes more >energy than a classic elastic sphere conservation-of-momentum physics >problem. The angular momentum transfer is a lot like transferring >charge between two capacitors by connecting them with a resistor, but >worse because of the felt. > >Air hockey is closer to classic elastic collision. > >John > > My MIT freshman physics lab had air-supported pucks with periodic sparking onto teledeltos paper to investigate collisions, momentum and energy. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama: A reincarnation of Nixon, narcissistically posing in politically-correct black-face, but with fewer scruples.
From: Jim Thompson on 7 Jul 2010 12:29 On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:57:10 -0700, Fred Abse <excretatauris(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:18:12 +1000, Adrian Jansen wrote: > >> >> Jim Thompson wrote: > >>> "Charge" IS conserved. So if you transfer Q from C1 to C2 >>> >>> >>> C1*V1 == C2*V2 >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> If you conserve energy, then you must have >> >> C1*V1^2 = C2*V2^2 > >Both conditions are only satisfied when C1=C2 Do my math problem. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | Obama: A reincarnation of Nixon, narcissistically posing in politically-correct black-face, but with fewer scruples.
From: John Larkin on 7 Jul 2010 12:30 On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:57:10 -0700, Fred Abse <excretatauris(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 08:18:12 +1000, Adrian Jansen wrote: > >> >> Jim Thompson wrote: > >>> "Charge" IS conserved. So if you transfer Q from C1 to C2 >>> >>> >>> C1*V1 == C2*V2 >>> >>> ...Jim Thompson >> If you conserve energy, then you must have >> >> C1*V1^2 = C2*V2^2 > >Both conditions are only satisfied when C1=C2 Some people believe that charge is always conserved, and some people believe that energy is always conserved. Simple thought experiments can resolve the dilemma. John
From: Winfield Hill on 7 Jul 2010 12:38
Jim Thompson wrote... > John Larkin wrote: >> Adrian Jansen wrote: >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >[snip] >>>> >>>> Depends on the definition of "depends" :-) >>>> "Charge" IS conserved. So if you transfer Q from C1 to C2 >>> >>> If you conserve energy, then you must have >>> C1*V1^2 = C2*V2^2 >> Right. If you dump all the energy from one charged cap into >> another, discharged, cap of a different value, and do it >> efficiently, charge is not conserved. > > John says, "...charge is not conserved." > Newbies are invited to Google on "conservation of charge". > (AND run the math problem I previously posted.) > John is so full of it I'd bet his eyes are brown ;-) > > Unfortunately, Adrian Jansen mis-states the results as well :-( I haven't been following this thread, but I have a comment. The operative phrase must be, "and do it efficiently." This is easy to do, with a dc-dc converter for example, or a mosfet switch and an inductor. In these cases it's easy to manipulate E1 and E2, C1*V1^2 = C2*V2^2. Forget about charge. -- Thanks, - Win |