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From: John Fields on 8 Jul 2010 10:36 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:13:53 -0700, AM <thisthatandtheother(a)beherenow.org> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields ><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >>With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ >>22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 >>which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance >>in the circuit. >> >>I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >>back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >>circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >>to essentially zero. >> >>Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >>a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >>cycles". > > > Which proves that something is lost, or the process has a cost, as each >cycle is decaying. > > It requires 'work' to 'cast' the electrons 'across' the face of the >plates. :-) > > Kind of like playing "Trouble". The surface gets crowded with >electrons and a few get lost when the pressures bump around. --- Mostly it's the resistance of the choke which causes the decay. Right-click on the choke and then clear the box that says "series resistance" and run the sim. Surprise! JF
From: AM on 8 Jul 2010 10:43 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:23:18 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >Oops... Dag Nabbit!
From: AM on 8 Jul 2010 10:51 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:36:26 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:13:53 -0700, AM ><thisthatandtheother(a)beherenow.org> wrote: > >>On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields >><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>>With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ >>>22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 >>>which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance >>>in the circuit. >>> >>>I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >>>back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >>>circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >>>to essentially zero. >>> >>>Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >>>a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >>>cycles". >> >> >> Which proves that something is lost, or the process has a cost, as each >>cycle is decaying. >> >> It requires 'work' to 'cast' the electrons 'across' the face of the >>plates. :-) >> >> Kind of like playing "Trouble". The surface gets crowded with >>electrons and a few get lost when the pressures bump around. > >--- >Mostly it's the resistance of the choke which causes the decay. > >Right-click on the choke and then clear the box that says "series >resistance" and run the sim. > >Surprise! > > >JF Hysteresis of the domains only causes heating but the only cost is phase shift, because all that energy does get conserved? Or does that heating also have a cost. Or is it eddy currents I am thinking of?
From: John Larkin on 8 Jul 2010 11:35 On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 09:36:26 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 06:13:53 -0700, AM ><thisthatandtheother(a)beherenow.org> wrote: > >>On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields >><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>>With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ >>>22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 >>>which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance >>>in the circuit. >>> >>>I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >>>back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >>>circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >>>to essentially zero. >>> >>>Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >>>a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >>>cycles". >> >> >> Which proves that something is lost, or the process has a cost, as each >>cycle is decaying. >> >> It requires 'work' to 'cast' the electrons 'across' the face of the >>plates. :-) >> >> Kind of like playing "Trouble". The surface gets crowded with >>electrons and a few get lost when the pressures bump around. > >--- >Mostly it's the resistance of the choke which causes the decay. > >Right-click on the choke and then clear the box that says "series >resistance" and run the sim. > >Surprise! > > >JF What happens? Does it oscillate for millions of cycles? In fact, it oscillates for millions of cycles even when the Q is 200. Eventually Spice will run out of floating-point precision, but that's just Spice. John
From: John Larkin on 8 Jul 2010 11:43
On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 07:40:48 -0500, John Fields <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:54:26 -0700, John Larkin ><jjlarkin(a)highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote: > >>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 18:57:11 -0500, John Fields >><jfields(a)austininstruments.com> wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 07 Jul 2010 13:00:12 -0700, Jim Thompson >>><To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon(a)On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Larkin vaguely started his thread with no mention of an inductor >>>>whatsoever, then added the inductor and claimed "sloshing" forever. >> >>I said that certain posts were untrue. Which they were. >> >>> >>>--- >>>Yeah, well, Larkin claims a lot of things are absolutely true which >>>break down around zero and infinity. >> >>Cite? > >--- >Well, the one that always brings a grin to my chops is: "Latching >relays have infinite gain." > >There are others, but they slip my mind and it's just not worth the >effort to find them. >--- > >>>>What-a-pile of BS... >>>>use real switches and real inductors and real >>>>capacitors. >>> >>>--- >>>Indeed. >> >>It helps to understand ideal circuits before you consider real >>circuits. The ideals are the limiting cases. You CAN transfer charge >>between equal value caps without loss of charge, and you can more >>generally transfer energy between caps without loss; just use an >>inductor. >> >>For those who dislike theory, Spice will slosh charge around between >>two caps for millions of cycles. Try it. > >--- >OK > >Version 4 >SHEET 1 880 680 >WIRE -384 48 -496 48 >WIRE -256 48 -304 48 >WIRE -224 48 -256 48 >WIRE -128 48 -144 48 >WIRE 16 48 -48 48 >WIRE 128 48 96 48 >WIRE -496 144 -496 48 >WIRE -256 192 -256 48 >WIRE 128 192 128 48 >WIRE -368 304 -368 96 >WIRE -112 304 -112 96 >WIRE -496 400 -496 224 >WIRE -368 400 -368 384 >WIRE -368 400 -496 400 >WIRE -320 400 -320 96 >WIRE -320 400 -368 400 >WIRE -256 400 -256 256 >WIRE -256 400 -320 400 >WIRE -112 400 -112 384 >WIRE -112 400 -256 400 >WIRE -64 400 -64 96 >WIRE -64 400 -112 400 >WIRE 128 400 128 256 >WIRE 128 400 -64 400 >WIRE -496 480 -496 400 >FLAG -496 480 0 >SYMBOL voltage -496 128 R0 >WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 >WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 >SYMATTR InstName V2 >SYMATTR Value 12 >SYMBOL voltage -368 288 R0 >WINDOW 0 -53 5 Left 0 >WINDOW 3 -242 110 Invisible 0 >WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 >WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 >SYMATTR InstName V3 >SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 1 0 1E-6 1E-6 .01) >SYMBOL sw -288 48 M270 >WINDOW 0 32 15 Left 0 >WINDOW 3 32 44 Left 0 >SYMATTR InstName S1 >SYMBOL sw -32 48 M270 >WINDOW 0 32 15 Left 0 >WINDOW 3 32 44 Left 0 >SYMATTR InstName S2 >SYMBOL cap -272 192 R0 >SYMATTR InstName C1 >SYMATTR Value 1e-7 >SYMBOL ind 0 64 R270 >WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 0 >WINDOW 3 5 56 VBottom 0 >SYMATTR InstName L1 >SYMATTR Value 1e-3 >SYMBOL cap 112 192 R0 >SYMATTR InstName C2 >SYMATTR Value 1e-7 >SYMBOL voltage -112 288 R0 >WINDOW 0 -53 5 Left 0 >WINDOW 3 -242 110 Invisible 0 >WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0 >WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0 >SYMATTR InstName V1 >SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 1 .02 1E-6 1E-6) >SYMBOL res -128 32 R90 >WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 0 >WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 0 >SYMATTR InstName R1 >SYMATTR Value .69 >TEXT -480 424 Left 0 !.model SW SW(Ron=1e-6 Roff=100Meg Vt=0.5Vh=0) >TEXT -482 456 Left 0 !.tran .1 > > > > >With the 0.1�F caps and 1mH coil shown, we have a frequency of ~ >22.5kHz and an inductive reactance of ~ 141 ohms which, for a Q of 200 >which you used in another post, calls for about 0.7 ohms of resistance >in the circuit. > >I included it as the series resistance of the choke and, as reported >back by LTspice, once the charged cap is connected to the LC, the >circuit starts ringing, and after about 20ms (to be generous) decays >to essentially zero. > >Thus we have a decaying 20ms period populated by 46�s wide cycles, for >a total of about 435 cycles, a far cry from your claimed "millions of >cycles". How in the world could you post anything that wrong? If you actually ran it, and accepted the results, well, there's nothing polite I can say. So let me say this as quietly as I can: YOU DON'T NEED SPICE TO UNDERSTAND CIRCUITS THIS SIMPLE. John |