Jihad needs scientists
in [Design]
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From: unsettled on 8 Nov 2006 19:58 lucasea(a)sbcglobal.net wrote: > "Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:45525B3A.A3C915E6(a)hotmail.com... > >> >>lucasea(a)sbcglobal.net wrote: >> >> >>>"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> >>>>lucasea(a)sbcglobal.net wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Don Rumsfeld, cut from the same inflexible, unthinking and >>>>>unlistening, >>>>>"my way or the highway" mold, has now stepped aside. >>>> >>>>Do you think it was his decision entirely or was he nudged or even >>>>pushed ? >>> >>>Oh, I'm quite certain he was pushed. >> >>I'd like to think so ! >> >> >> >>> You can see it on Rumsfeld's face. I >>>think Bush saw the writing on the wall, that he would probably have to >>>let >>>Rumsfeld go at some point, and decided to cut bait now while he has a >>>remote >>>chance of having an even minimally friendly Congress for the new guy's >>>confirmation hearings. From what little I've read, however, the new guy >>>is >>>probably a pretty good choice, given his actual desire and ability to >>>work >>>with other people, and not think he can run the whole show himself. >> >>You mean there may yet be some hope for 'consensus politics' ??? >> >>I'd heard Bush isn't so keen on that. > > > You should follow some of the unfolding events at cnn.com--these are the > events you will likely not hear anything about in the fullness of time. > Within hours of news of his victory in 2004, Bush was doing a > spike-the-ball-in-the-endzone victory dance, and waving it in everybody's > face. By stark contrast, within hours of news of the Democratic victories, > Nancy Pelosi, who is expected to become probably the most powerful Democrat > in Washington, has said almost nothing publicly, but rather has quietly > approached Bush and extended her wish to work together with him and to > compromise. Nonsense, she made a public appearance today giving a rather long gloating speech. > Tell me....which of those two approaches do you think will end up being more > effective in actually getting things done in Washington? Would that it had > happened 2 years ago (or, while we're dreaming, 6 years ago)....
From: Ben Newsam on 8 Nov 2006 19:40 On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 21:37:42 GMT, <lucasea(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: >I also find it a thing of wonder how well the whole lot of them was able to >foresee how American society might develop, how prescient they all ended up >being, and how well they took account of it in their ideas about how the >country should be structured. They were a very wise bunch indeed. They also had the luxury of being able to start from scratch.
From: Ben Newsam on 8 Nov 2006 19:43 On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 15:56:36 -0600, unsettled <unsettled(a)nonsense.com> wrote: >lucasea(a)sbcglobal.net wrote: >> As is claiming that some villain in the past held the views of your opponent >> is also a common trick. I'll bet Hitler did that. > >, he said transparently. And we thought that Americans didn't understand irony! And only on the third attempt, too!
From: unsettled on 8 Nov 2006 20:10 Ben Newsam wrote: > On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 21:37:42 GMT, <lucasea(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > >>I also find it a thing of wonder how well the whole lot of them was able to >>foresee how American society might develop, how prescient they all ended up >>being, and how well they took account of it in their ideas about how the >>country should be structured. > > > They were a very wise bunch indeed. They also had the luxury of being > able to start from scratch. Not at all. They had a population that demanded as little change from what they were used to as necessary. As time went on they reverted to much of what they sought to escape when they came here. Sometime take a few hours and read the Federalist Papers. They're on the internet.
From: Jonathan Kirwan on 8 Nov 2006 20:29
On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 00:40:38 +0000, Ben Newsam <ben.newsam(a)ukonline.co.uk> wrote: >On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 21:37:42 GMT, <lucasea(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote: > >>I also find it a thing of wonder how well the whole lot of them was able to >>foresee how American society might develop, how prescient they all ended up >>being, and how well they took account of it in their ideas about how the >>country should be structured. > >They were a very wise bunch indeed. They also had the luxury of being >able to start from scratch. I wouldn't say it was exactly a luxury, except that you had some educated and thoughtful folks with many powerful personal interests, at play. There were quite a number of points at which the whole idea came within an hair's breadth from completely and permanently failing and I'm not sure that managing to steer clear of the pitfalls was entirely by crafty design. There was a LOT of luck at play. I can provide a clearer example of this. Take a look at this web page of mine: http://users.easystreet.com/jkirwan/new/hfcusa08.html On it, on pages 93ff, starting with the paragraph that says, "Before the officers had taken into..." A letter was circulated in the army: "My friends! After seven long years your suffering courage has conducted the United States of America through a doubtful and a bloody war; and peace returns to bless -- whom? A country willing to redress your wounds and reward your services? Or is it rather a country that tramples upon your rights, disdains your cries, and insults your distresses? Have you not lately, in the meek language of humble petitioners, begged from the justice of congress what you could no longer expect from their favor? How have you been answered? Let the letter which you are called to consider to-morrow make reply! "If this be your treatment while the swords you wear are necessary for the defence of America, what have you to expect when those very swords, the instruments and companions of your glory, shall be taken from your sides, and no mark of military distinction left but your wants, infirmities, and scars? If you have sense enough to discover and spirit to oppose tyranny, whatever garb it may assume, awake to your situation. If the present moment be lost, your threats hereafter will be as empty as your entreaties now. Appeal from the justice to the fears of government; and suspect the man who would advise to longer forbearance." That last phrase above was a nod towards General Washington. Read from page 93 though to the end of page 99. That will get you a flavor. The upshot is that Washington just happened to find out about the possible insurrection and was only just barely able to find a means by which to mitigate the issue, which would almost certainly have led to bloodshed and no possibility of eventual union. It took good people, good education, excellent personal skills, lots of work..... and a lot of luck. Never forget the luck. Jon |