Latin, the Enlightenment, and science
in [Math]
|
Prev: Latin, the Enlightenment, and science
Next: question on Artwork and what is legal in altering a signed painting #24 South Dakota cat laws
From: Peter Moylan on 27 Dec 2009 19:52 On 28/12/09 10:04, Robert Bannister wrote: > PaulJK wrote: >> Robert Bannister wrote: >>> chazwin wrote: >>> >>>> All thinking is language dependant. >>> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're >>> hungry isn't thinking. >> >> I guess it turns tricky, if you make frequent spelling mistakes in >> your thinking. :-) > > It's well known that if you make one tiny mistake then the spell > rebounds upon the caster. That's why spell checkers were invented. -- Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page.
From: Brian M. Scott on 27 Dec 2009 19:56 On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:44:10 +1100, Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp(a)retep> wrote in <news:IMidnWjqUejBYqrWnZ2dnUVZ8sCdnZ2d(a)westnet.com.au> in sci.math,sci.physics,sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.philosophy: > On 28/12/09 07:49, Brian M. Scott wrote: >> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 05:11:53 -0800 (PST), Andrew Usher >> <k_over_hbarc(a)yahoo.com> wrote in >> <news:55772067-ca57-4c5f-a8ac-304c203adaaf(a)n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> >> in >> sci.math,sci.physics,sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.philosophy: >>> It is also true - as Marvin said - that many English >>> speakers do pronounce foreign words with foreign phonemes >>> ex. the umlautted vowels in 'Goethe' and 'Fuehrer' >>> (though Brits already have the first), >> Now there I disagree: they don't have [ø:]. > The BrE "er" vowel, as in "first", is so close to the > German "oe" that few people would notice the difference. It's easily the closest approximation in the BrE vowel system, and closer than anything in any rhotic variety of AmE that I've heard, but it's quite clearly not [ø:] (or [œ], for that matter). Brian
From: zzbunker on 27 Dec 2009 20:29 On Dec 27, 6:57 pm, "Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr." <ostap_bender_1...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > On Dec 27, 5:32 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: > > > > > > > Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. wrote: > > > > On Dec 26, 7:17 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: > > >> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. wrote: > > > >>> On Dec 25, 7:03 am, jmfbahciv <jmfbahciv(a)aol> wrote: > > >>>> Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. wrote: > > >>>>> On Dec 24, 8:05 am, chazwin <chazwy...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>>>>> On Dec 24, 1:57 pm, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>> The use of Latin in the sciences and other learned fields basically > > >>>>>>> ceased in the 18th and 19th centuries. I have long wondered why people > > >>>>>>> accepted the use of national languages exclusively in this endeavor > > >>>>>>> where international understanding is more imperative than any other. > > >>>>>>> It is true, that the use of Latin by 1700 had already passed almost > > >>>>>>> everywhere else, but its last remaining use should still have been > > >>>>>>> enough to support it, given that Latin was the one language that every > > >>>>>>> educated man in the Western world knew, and that Latin, having such a > > >>>>>>> long tradition of use, was at least suitable for scientific and > > >>>>>>> technical purposes as any other language at the time. > > >>>>>>> And so, some explanations suggest themselves. The first is that the > > >>>>>>> predominant advocates and defenders of Latin, from the Renaissance to > > >>>>>>> now, are from the humanities; and so once Latin had disappeared from > > >>>>>>> live literary use, their support was no longer important. The second > > >>>>>>> is to blame it on the French: they abandoned Latin earlier than anyone > > >>>>>>> else, and are well-known to have an inflated view of the greatness of > > >>>>>>> their own language. But that does not seem to explain how it happened > > >>>>>>> everywhere else: had they wanted to emulate the French, they would > > >>>>>>> have started writing in French, and if they had wanted to oppose them, > > >>>>>>> they should have re-emphasised the role of Latin. > > >>>>>>> Now, of course, I can't propose the revival of Latin for these > > >>>>>>> purposes: English has virtually replaced it as the international > > >>>>>>> scientific language. But it look a long time during which dealing with > > >>>>>>> many different languages was a considerable problem, and it seems as > > >>>>>>> though this should have been avoided. > > >>>>>>> Andrew Usher > > >>>>>> Latin provided an invaluable tool for the transmission of ideas > > >>>>>> throughout Europe, not bound my the restrictions of parochial > > >>>>>> languages long before the Enlightenment. This together with the > > >>>>>> invention of printing was the way that the Reformation exploded right > > >>>>>> across Europe without the need for learning all the various languages > > >>>>>> that were still unformed. > > >>>>>> Latin's use was maintained long into the 18thC. It use continued in > > >>>>>> Botany and other sciences in the coining of neologisms , and is still > > >>>>>> in use to this day. > > >>>>>> The 19thC saw the domination of English > > >>>>> In what field? Certainly not in math, science, philosophy, music, art, > > >>>>> cuisine, etc. > > >>>>> French was the overall lingua franca among educated people in the 19th > > >>>>> century. English dominated relatively minor fields like tea-drinking > > >>>>> and crumpet-making. > > >>>> And it stultified. France elides all words which aren't French to this > > >>>> day. Thus word creation and new meanings are expunged from the > > >>>> language. > > >>> What is the relevance between what I said and what you wrote? > > >> I thought I was having a conversation. The French make it > > >> almost impossible to do useful things in an efficient manner. > > >> You are not allowed to create new words until they are > > >> approved by some commission years later (can't recall the > > >> name). > > > > Why do you care? > > > JMF had a presentation which was supposed to teach 50-100 > > Frenchmen how to modify and work with a ship of new > > software. He was given an hour to present 5 hours worth > > of technical information. Every sentence he uttered > > had to be translated into French before he could go on > > to the next sentence. Having an interruption of a > > minute between sentences which have intense technical > > information disturbs the flow of knowledge. It also > > reduced the allotted time of his talk to 30 minutes. > > > he did not get to talk about many details that the > > audience needed to learn about. He put up with this > > nonsense because he assumed there were people in > > the audience who didn't understand English. After > > the talk, he found out everybody knew English. > > Yes, most French people know English, Italian, Spanish, and/or German, > etc. So do Canadians. They are educated people, unlike Americans and > Englishmen, who are too busy reading comic books and cartoons to learn > foreign languages. Since anymore, post of the crank science people spend a good part making of languages for Betelguesians, the people with actual sense work on self-assembling robots, the people actual brains, work on post stooge idiot and on-line publishing. > > Your point well taken.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: Yusuf B Gursey on 27 Dec 2009 21:26 On Dec 27, 6:22 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: > Yusuf B Gursey wrote: > > On Dec 25, 7:31 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: > >> Andrew Usher wrote: > >>> bert wrote: > >>>> I think that this adoption of national languages had > >>>> more to do with rising national pride than with any > >>>> consensus about the shortcomings of Latin. > >>> This is kind of my point. My question was why this happened when one > >>> would think that the Enlightenment would lead to more internationalism > >>> among scholars - yet all the major Enlightenment figures wrote in > >>> their vernacular. > >> Moreover, particularly in Germany, many of them translated their names > >> into Latin or Greek. > > > but the German Romantics were for the vernacular (German) and were > > very anti-Latin, and eventually a language reform movement started in > > Germany removing many Latin or Romance based words, and Germanizing > > scientific terminology. > > At least a century later. Most things happened later in Germany because > the Thirty Years War and it accompanying devastation set the area back > so much. yes. > > -- > > Rob Bannister
From: Joachim Pense on 27 Dec 2009 22:15
Ostap S. B. M. Bender Jr. (in alt.usage.english): > > Yes, most French people know English Sort of. Joachim |