Latin, the Enlightenment, and science
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From: Peter T. Daniels on 27 Dec 2009 22:10 On Dec 27, 7:56 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...(a)csuohio.edu> wrote: > On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:44:10 +1100, Peter Moylan > <gro.nalyomp(a)retep> wrote in > <news:IMidnWjqUejBYqrWnZ2dnUVZ8sCdnZ2d(a)westnet.com.au> in > sci.math,sci.physics,sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.philosophy: > > > On 28/12/09 07:49, Brian M. Scott wrote: > >> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 05:11:53 -0800 (PST), Andrew Usher > >> <k_over_hb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in > >> <news:55772067-ca57-4c5f-a8ac-304c203adaaf(a)n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> > >> in > >> sci.math,sci.physics,sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.philosophy: > >>> It is also true - as Marvin said - that many English > >>> speakers do pronounce foreign words with foreign phonemes > >>> ex. the umlautted vowels in 'Goethe' and 'Fuehrer' > >>> (though Brits already have the first), > >> Now there I disagree: they don't have [ø:]. > > The BrE "er" vowel, as in "first", is so close to the > > German "oe" that few people would notice the difference. > > It's easily the closest approximation in the BrE vowel > system, and closer than anything in any rhotic variety of > AmE that I've heard, but it's quite clearly not [ø:] (or > [], for that matter). In AmE, "Goethe" is homophonous with "Gerta." Rhotic and all. (And "Fuehrer" starts like "few," but doesn't have the w-offglide before the r.)
From: Peter T. Daniels on 27 Dec 2009 22:14 On Dec 27, 7:50 pm, Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp(a)retep> wrote: > On 28/12/09 08:23, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > > > On Dec 27, 3:50 pm, garabik-news-2005...(a)kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk > > wrote: > >> Blame aioe - they won't let me to post followups to more than 3 groups.. > > > Then use a decent newsreader like google groups! > > This must be a meaning of "decent" that I've never met before. It lets you post to five groups ... and it always has the complete thread available. None of the newsgroup-snobs has yet produced a single reason to switch away.
From: Peter T. Daniels on 27 Dec 2009 22:15 On Dec 27, 6:06 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: > Marvin the Martian wrote: > > On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:41:23 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote: > > >> chazwin wrote: > > >>> All thinking is language dependant. > >> I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're > >> hungry isn't thinking. > > > It is a Chomsky thing. > > > The rebuttal to Chomsky's assertion that thinking is language dependent > > is simple: Observe how a chimpanzee has an ability to reason that is not > > too far behind the average human; problem solving and primitive tool use. > > Since chimps have no language, how is it that they think? Ergo, not >all< > > thinking is language dependent. > > > Q.E.D. > > Except that chimpanzees and some other apes have been successfully > taught sign language, so I'm not sure that "have no language" is quite > true. I doubt that most of us think verbally except when we are > composing sentences in our heads. Are you sure about that "successfully"? Has a native ASLer ever had a conversation with a chimpanzee or gorilla who allegedly "signs"?
From: Peter T. Daniels on 27 Dec 2009 22:16 On Dec 27, 6:21 pm, "sjdevn...(a)yahoo.com" <sjdevn...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > On Dec 27, 2:16 pm, Marvin the Martian <mar...(a)ontomars.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 08:41:23 +0800, Robert Bannister wrote: > > > chazwin wrote: > > > >> All thinking is language dependant. > > > > I have serious doubts about that unless you think that thinking you're > > > hungry isn't thinking. > > > It is a Chomsky thing. > > > The rebuttal to Chomsky's assertion that thinking is language dependent > > is simple: Observe how a chimpanzee has an ability to reason that is not > > too far behind the average human; problem solving and primitive tool use. > > Since chimps have no language, how is it that they think? Ergo, not >all< > > thinking is language dependent. > > I believe that "since chimps have no language" is at least one place > that your argument falls apart, though I'm inclined to agree that the > original assertion is incorrect. What's your evidence for chimpanzee language?
From: sjdevnull on 27 Dec 2009 23:18
On Dec 27, 10:10 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > On Dec 27, 7:56 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...(a)csuohio.edu> wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 11:44:10 +1100, Peter Moylan > > <gro.nalyomp(a)retep> wrote in > > <news:IMidnWjqUejBYqrWnZ2dnUVZ8sCdnZ2d(a)westnet.com.au> in > > sci.math,sci.physics,sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.philosophy: > > > > On 28/12/09 07:49, Brian M. Scott wrote: > > >> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 05:11:53 -0800 (PST), Andrew Usher > > >> <k_over_hb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote in > > >> <news:55772067-ca57-4c5f-a8ac-304c203adaaf(a)n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com> > > >> in > > >> sci.math,sci.physics,sci.lang,alt.usage.english,alt.philosophy: > > >>> It is also true - as Marvin said - that many English > > >>> speakers do pronounce foreign words with foreign phonemes > > >>> ex. the umlautted vowels in 'Goethe' and 'Fuehrer' > > >>> (though Brits already have the first), > > >> Now there I disagree: they don't have [ø:]. > > > The BrE "er" vowel, as in "first", is so close to the > > > German "oe" that few people would notice the difference. > > > It's easily the closest approximation in the BrE vowel > > system, and closer than anything in any rhotic variety of > > AmE that I've heard, but it's quite clearly not [ø:] (or > > [], for that matter). > > In AmE, "Goethe" is homophonous with "Gerta." Rhotic and all. AmE here, currently in northern VA, originally from Maine. Just in my experience, it's about 50/50 whether it's pronounced in a horribly mangled semi-phonetic manner or whether it's vaguely like "Gerta" but with a more elongated German-style oe first syllable and at most a partially vocalized "r"--I wouldn't call "Goethe" and "Gerta" homophones. The horribly mangled version is basically "Geth", which rhymes with "death". |