Latin, the Enlightenment, and science
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From: Ian Dalziel on 27 Dec 2009 08:35 On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:33:09 +0000, Chuck Riggs <chriggs(a)eircom.net> wrote: >On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:18:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" ><grammatim(a)verizon.net> wrote: > >>On Dec 26, 10:04�am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: >>> On Dec 26, 8:58�am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: >>> > On Dec 25, 11:18�pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: >>> > > On Dec 25, 11:11�pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: >>> > > > On Dec 25, 8:01�pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: >>> > > > > On Dec 25, 1:54�pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: >>> > > > > > On Dec 25, 11:43�am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: >>> > > > > > > why isn't this cross-posted to a medical or biological NG? Latin based >>> > > > > > > coinages are AFAIK more alive in those fields. philosophy tends, AFAIK >>> > > > > > > towards german. particle physics is inovative: quark (a fundamental >>> > > > > > > particle, IIRC from a type of german cheese, but based on a miss- >>> >>> > > > > > Did Gell-Mann ever claim any connection with Ger. Quark?? >>> >>> > > > > no, he didn't. >>> >>> > > > Then why did you say he did? >>> >>> > > I said the word was from German, not that Gell-Mann claimed the >>> > > connection. >>> >>> > So now it's your claim that Joyce was writing about three cottage- >>> > cheeses for Muster Mark? >>> >>> I don't have any idea what Joyce had in mind, but I know that quark is >>> a type of cheese in German.- >> >>Everyone knows that. But it has nothing to do with the name of the >>subatomic particle, unless Joyce was referencing it in that passage. > >It was the other way around. Quarks were named after one of the many >unusual words in Finnegans Wake. I started to say that - but on reflection I think Peter means "unless Joyce was referencing the cheese". -- Ian D
From: James Hogg on 27 Dec 2009 08:38 Chuck Riggs wrote: > On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:18:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > <grammatim(a)verizon.net> wrote: > >> On Dec 26, 10:04 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: >>> On Dec 26, 8:58 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> >>> wrote: >>>> On Dec 25, 11:18 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: >>>>> On Dec 25, 11:11 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" >>>>> <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>> On Dec 25, 8:01 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> On Dec 25, 1:54 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" >>>>>>> <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Dec 25, 11:43 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> why isn't this cross-posted to a medical or >>>>>>>>> biological NG? Latin based coinages are AFAIK more >>>>>>>>> alive in those fields. philosophy tends, AFAIK >>>>>>>>> towards german. particle physics is inovative: quark >>>>>>>>> (a fundamental particle, IIRC from a type of german >>>>>>>>> cheese, but based on a miss- >>>>>>>> Did Gell-Mann ever claim any connection with Ger. >>>>>>>> Quark?? >>>>>>> no, he didn't. >>>>>> Then why did you say he did? >>>>> I said the word was from German, not that Gell-Mann claimed >>>>> the connection. >>>> So now it's your claim that Joyce was writing about three >>>> cottage- cheeses for Muster Mark? >>> I don't have any idea what Joyce had in mind, but I know that >>> quark is a type of cheese in German.- >> Everyone knows that. But it has nothing to do with the name of the >> subatomic particle, unless Joyce was referencing it in that >> passage. > > It was the other way around. Quarks were named after one of the many > unusual words in Finnegans Wake. Here's what the coiner himself wrote to the OED: "Compare the following account given by Gell-Mann in a private letter of 27 June 1978 to the Editor of the Supplement to the O.E.D.: 'I employed the sound "quork" for several weeks in 1963 before noticing "quark" in "Finnegans Wake", which I had perused from time to time since it appeared in 1939... The allusion to three quarks seemed perfect... I needed an excuse for retaining the pronunciation quork despite the occurrence of "Mark", "bark", "mark", and so forth in Finnegans Wake. I found that excuse by supposing that one ingredient of the line "Three quarks for Muster Mark" was a cry of "Three quarts for Mister..." heard in H. C. Earwicker's pub.'" -- James
From: Andrew Usher on 27 Dec 2009 08:52 John Stafford wrote: > I have come into this thread late with a poor browser. Excuse me if I > ask a stupid question. It's not stupid. It's actually pertinent to the subject of this thread - though I still haven't gotten any answer for how Enlightenment ideas might be related to the decline of Latin. > When Latin fell from favor for international communication, scholarly or > other, in what field (if any in particular) did it fail first? Was Latin > particularly useful in the physical sciences or the philosophical > discourse when it began its decline? It all non-scholarly fields I think Latin was dead by 1700. In philosophy, it wasn't much more alive: I can think of the major philosophical works of the 18c. written in English, French, or German: even Leibniz wrote his philosophy originally in French! In history, probably likewise: Gibbon considered writing his magnum opus in French, but certainly not in Latin. It is in more technical fields, mainly, that it remained an alternative for some time. Its obsolescence does not seem to be because Latin was not understood, though, which is why I asked the question. Andrew Usher
From: T.H. Ray on 26 Dec 2009 23:42 Marvin the martian wrote > On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 10:17:37 -0500, jmfbahciv wrote: > > > The French make it almost > > impossible to do useful things in an efficient > manner. You are not > > allowed to create new words until they are approved > by some commission > > years later (can't recall the name). > > Academie francaise. Sorry, I can't do the French > characters. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_de_l%27Acad% > C3%A9mie_fran%C3% > A7aise > > This does have advantages. For one thing, the Engs > and the Americans > butcher the English language. Real English has a > limited set of phonemes, > but the Engs and the Americans have this nasty habit > of using every > phoneme from every language. And they're starting to > insist that foreign > pronunciations be used. They're completely ignorant > that there often are > more than one dialect in a language; for example, > Spanish. > > Another benefit is that the Engs (Engs live in > Eng-land, right?) and > Americans use words incorrectly, and the incorrect > usage becomes > "correct" because they're so fond of "descriptive" > dictionaries rather > than proscriptive dictionaries. It's very democratic, > the idiots get to > decide what words mean. It's one big Archie Bunker > joke. For example, to > "protest" means to testify FOR something. In idiot > speak, to "protest the > war" means to speak against the war when the real > meaning is to speak FOR > the war. > > Lastly, it is hoped that having a panel such as the > French Academy would > prevent fad gibberish words like "bling-bling" from > reaching the > dictionary. Don't even get me started on how > "Ebonics" is being passed > off as English. > > The only real downside to the French Academy is that > idiots who don't use > the language properly are called idiots. Is that so > wrong? > > > Yes. Wrong and stupid. Arts and language are progressive, not the province of some particular class. Since this ignorant and bigoted nonsense keeps appearing in sci.math, let's make some small attempt to put it back on topic: Mathematics is also a language. Its progress, like the progress of natural language, depends on the creative ability to invent terms for new varieties of experience. Tom
From: Peter T. Daniels on 27 Dec 2009 12:55
On Dec 27, 8:35 am, Ian Dalziel <iandalz...(a)lineone.net> wrote: > On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:33:09 +0000, Chuck Riggs <chri...(a)eircom.net> > wrote: > > > > > > >On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:18:30 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > ><gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > > >>On Dec 26, 10:04 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: > >>> On Dec 26, 8:58 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > >>> > On Dec 25, 11:18 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: > >>> > > On Dec 25, 11:11 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > >>> > > > On Dec 25, 8:01 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: > >>> > > > > On Dec 25, 1:54 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > >>> > > > > > On Dec 25, 11:43 am, Yusuf B Gursey <y...(a)theworld.com> wrote: > >>> > > > > > > why isn't this cross-posted to a medical or biological NG? Latin based > >>> > > > > > > coinages are AFAIK more alive in those fields. philosophy tends, AFAIK > >>> > > > > > > towards german. particle physics is inovative: quark (a fundamental > >>> > > > > > > particle, IIRC from a type of german cheese, but based on a miss- > > >>> > > > > > Did Gell-Mann ever claim any connection with Ger. Quark?? > > >>> > > > > no, he didn't. > > >>> > > > Then why did you say he did? > > >>> > > I said the word was from German, not that Gell-Mann claimed the > >>> > > connection. > > >>> > So now it's your claim that Joyce was writing about three cottage- > >>> > cheeses for Muster Mark? > > >>> I don't have any idea what Joyce had in mind, but I know that quark is > >>> a type of cheese in German.- > > >>Everyone knows that. But it has nothing to do with the name of the > >>subatomic particle, unless Joyce was referencing it in that passage. > > >It was the other way around. Quarks were named after one of the many > >unusual words in Finnegans Wake. > > I started to say that - but on reflection I think Peter means "unless > Joyce was referencing the cheese". I don't see how what I wrote could be interpreted any other way. |