Latin, the Enlightenment, and science
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From: James Hogg on 30 Dec 2009 07:59 Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: > James Hogg wrote: >> Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: >>> Peter T. Daniels wrote: >>>> On Dec 29, 9:27 pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr...(a)paradise.net.nz> >>>> wrote: >>>>> jmfbahciv wrote: >>> >>>>> Your guess seems to me to be a good one. It would explain how >>>>> sometimes he sees chars with diacritics and sometimes just >>>>> spaces giving him the impression that it's something the >>>>> posters do, not his google i/face. >>> >>>> The missing-character thing NEVER happened before I mentioned >>>> it a day or two ago. >>> >>> Do you remember the message(-ID)? If so we could analyze the >>> error. >> >> You can take a message of mine as an example: >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.english.usage/msg/1b052723d2e17c01 >> >> >> I typed the name Ant�nio with an accent on the first "o", posting >> in ISO-8859-1. > > Looks nice in my reader. > >> It shows up as "Ant nio" in the ordinary GG format, > > An error of GG. > >> but if you view the original of the message you see "Ant�nio". > > I cannot reproduce this error. Looks like "double or triple > encoding". This error is in _your_ configuration. Maybe, but it looks all right in my newsreader, and in my messages as quoted by you and other people who don't use GG. -- James
From: Peter T. Daniels on 30 Dec 2009 09:39 On Dec 30, 5:29 am, Helmut Wollmersdorfer <hel...(a)wollmersdorfer.at> wrote: > Peter T. Daniels wrote: > > On Dec 29, 9:27 pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> jmfbahciv wrote: > >> Your guess seems to me to be a good one. It would > >> explain how sometimes he sees chars with diacritics and > >> sometimes just spaces giving him the impression that it's > >> something the posters do, not his google i/face. > > The missing-character thing NEVER happened before I mentioned it a day > > or two ago. > > Do you remember the message(-ID)? If so we could analyze the error. Surely you don't mean "remember"! Once in a while, people post "message IDs" here, but if there's a way to display the header _of a newsgroup message_, I don't know what it is. If one wanted to bother, one could search words like "space" within this thread.
From: Peter T. Daniels on 30 Dec 2009 09:44 On Dec 30, 7:59 am, James Hogg <Jas.H...(a)gOUTmail.com> wrote: > Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: > > James Hogg wrote: > >> Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote: > >>> Peter T. Daniels wrote: > >>>> On Dec 29, 9:27 pm, "PaulJK" <paul.kr...(a)paradise.net.nz> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> jmfbahciv wrote: > > >>>>> Your guess seems to me to be a good one. It would explain how > >>>>> sometimes he sees chars with diacritics and sometimes just > >>>>> spaces giving him the impression that it's something the > >>>>> posters do, not his google i/face. > > >>>> The missing-character thing NEVER happened before I mentioned > >>>> it a day or two ago. > > >>> Do you remember the message(-ID)? If so we could analyze the > >>> error. > > >> You can take a message of mine as an example: > >>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.english.usage/msg/1b052723d2e17c01 > > >> I typed the name António with an accent on the first "o", posting > >> in ISO-8859-1. > > > Looks nice in my reader. > > >> It shows up as "Ant nio" in the ordinary GG format, > > > An error of GG. > > >> but if you view the original of the message you see "Ant�nio". > > > I cannot reproduce this error. Looks like "double or triple > > encoding". This error is in _your_ configuration. > > Maybe, but it looks all right in my newsreader, and in my messages as > quoted by you and other people who don't use GG. And it looks fine in the line above with three chevrons (James). Normally when an accented letter doesn't come through it doesn't appear as a sequence of three characters as James typed (i, Spanish- question, one-half), but either as a single question mark or as some other character from the second 128-character range (perhaps a la Mac vs. PC presentations of the few characters that were coded differently in the respective varieties of PostScript fonts).
From: Peter T. Daniels on 30 Dec 2009 09:57 On Dec 30, 4:19 am, Wolfgang Schwanke <s...(a)sig.nature> wrote: > "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote innews:108a56fc-d0c6-4938-a1c9-3d33f2857f94(a)e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com: > > > On Dec 29, 1:02 am, Marvin the Martian <mar...(a)ontomars.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:39:04 -0800, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > >> >> > What ape has "acquired language"? > > >> >> Washo, for one.- > > >> > No one was ever allowed to interact with Washoe except her own > >> > trainers, who, like the attendants of the Oracle of Delphi, carried > >> > her messages back to the observers. Signers who got to see rare > >> > unedited clips of her gestural activity reported that it was > >> > nothing like signing. > > >> So, you're saying it is all fraud to get funding? > > > No, I'm saying (as many have) that it is a "Clever Hans Phenomenon." > > There are several animals of different species (chimpanzees, dolphins, > a grey parrot) who've been reported to have acquired various symbolic > languages. By extension you're saying they are all "clever hanses"? There was only one paper about dolphin communication at the conference (the discussion after each paper was inscribed and included, so you could look it up), and I don't recall anyone ever claiming to have caused dolphins to acquire a symbolic language. Ms. Pepperberg and her parrot were based at Northwestern U for many years, and not surprisingly got lots of attention in the Chicago press. One thing that was perfectly clear was that _no one_ was ever allowed to meet the bird. That may have changed when she moved to a different university; there is a book by a journalist about her, which I had no interest in reading. Perhaps s/he became convinced that the parrot could speak English.
From: Peter T. Daniels on 30 Dec 2009 10:00
On Dec 30, 7:54 am, António Marques <antonio...(a)sapo.pt> wrote: > Wolfgang Schwanke wrote (30-12-2009 09:19): > > "Peter T. Daniels"<gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote in > >news:108a56fc-d0c6-4938-a1c9-3d33f2857f94(a)e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com: > >> On Dec 29, 1:02 am, Marvin the Martian<mar...(a)ontomars.org> wrote: > >>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 20:39:04 -0800, Peter T. Daniels wrote: > >>>>>> What ape has "acquired language"? > > >>>>> Washo, for one.- > > >>>> No one was ever allowed to interact with Washoe except her own > >>>> trainers, who, like the attendants of the Oracle of Delphi, carried > >>>> her messages back to the observers. Signers who got to see rare > >>>> unedited clips of her gestural activity reported that it was > >>>> nothing like signing. > > >>> So, you're saying it is all fraud to get funding? > > >> No, I'm saying (as many have) that it is a "Clever Hans Phenomenon." > > > There are several animals of different species (chimpanzees, dolphins, > > a grey parrot) who've been reported to have acquired various symbolic > > languages. > > Don't forget the octopi. > > > By extension you're saying they are all "clever hanses"? > > Well, they're certainly not 'dumb'.- "Clever Hans" was a horse who could do arithmetic -- his master would pose a simple question (in German, presumably) with a simple numerical answer, and he would stamp his hoof the correct number of times. Turned out that he was responding to unconscious cues from his master, who would relax, or something, when the correct number was reached, and Hans would know to stop. Hans was no more clever than any horse who could gee or haw (turn right or left) on vocal command. |