The perpetual calendar
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From: Peter T. Daniels on 24 Feb 2010 02:07 On Feb 23, 5:47 pm, Hatunen <hatu...(a)cox.net> wrote: > On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:42:42 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > > > > > > <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote: > >On Feb 23, 1:48 pm, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...(a)csuohio.edu> wrote: > >> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:39:35 +0000, Ant nio Marques > >> <antonio...(a)sapo.pt> wrote in > >> <news:hm13st$kct$1(a)news.eternal-september.org> in > >> sci.math,sci.physics,sci.astro,sci.lang,alt.usage.english: > > >> > Brian M. Scott wrote (23-02-2010 16:56): > >> >> On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:16:59 +0000, Ant nio Marques > >> >> <antonio...(a)sapo.pt> wrote in > >> >> <news:hm0kgg$548$1(a)news.eternal-september.org> in > >> >> sci.math,sci.physics,sci.astro,sci.lang,alt.usage.english: > >> >>> Adam Funk wrote (23-02-2010 11:39): > >> >>>> On 2010-02-23, Andrew Usher wrote: > >> >>>>>>> The Catholic Church has stated, I believe more than > >> >>>>>>> once (it's linked to somewhere in this thread) that > >> >>>>>>> fixing Easter to a particular week would be > >> >>>>>>> acceptable. > >> >>>> ("Catholic" is a commonly used but imprecise abbreviation > >> >>>> of "Roman Catholic".) > >> >>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote: > >> >>>>>> "The Catholic Church" (which refers to no specific > >> >>>>>> organization) hasn't spoken for all of Christendom for > >> >>>>>> nearly half a millennium. > >> >>>>> 'The Catholic Church' or simply 'The Church' refers to > >> >>>>> exactly one organisation. It's disingenuous to pretend > >> >>>>> otherwise. Also, it's been longer than half a > >> >>>>> millennium if one includes the East. > >> >>>> The "Roman Catholic Church", the "Old Catholic Church", > >> >>>> and the "Polish National Catholic Church" are > >> >>>> independent of each other. > >> >>>> The "Eastern Catholic Churches" are under papal authority > >> >>>> but I don't think they describe themselves as "Roman > >> >>>> Catholic". > >> >>> Gad, not again! You're trolling, aren't you? > >> >>> "Roman Catholic" ISN'T AN OFFICIAL SELF-DESIGNATION. > >> >>> ANYWHERE. > >> >> It and RC are, however, widely used popular designations. > >> > Indeed, but what relevance does that have when trying to > >> > ascertain what the precise terminology is? > > >> It's not apparent that any particular notion of precise > >> terminology is relevant to Peter's deliberate > >> misunderstanding and the subsequent comments thereon. > > >_Now_ what are you accusing me of? > > >> >>> In the tradition from which the Roman and the Greek > >> >>> Churches come, the Church has no splitting qualifiers. > >> >> But this isn't really relevant outside that tradition. > >> > But what is the relevance of the outside of that tradition > >> > to what the ECC think of themselves? > > >> You seem to be involved in a different discussion. > > >> >>> From the Church's point of view, there aren't multiple > >> >>> churches. > >> >> But from an external point of view there very obviously are. > >> > It depends, but what is the relevance of any external > >> > point of view to the internal point of view which is > >> > being discussed? > > >> You may be discussing an internal point of view; I am not, > >> and it's not clear to me that others are doing so, either. > > >> [...] > > >> >>> but it *is* accurate to say that the ECC are 'non-Latin > >> >>> CC', even if it's somewhat unwieldy. > >> >> Which in a widely used popular terminology becomes 'Catholic > >> >> but not Roman Catholic'. > >> > In widely used popular terminologies spiders are insects, > >> > Cycadaceae are palms and the moon is made of mozzarella. > > >> Not comparable. 'Catholic but not Roman Catholic' actually > >> does identify the churches in question. > > >There is, for instance, a Ukrainian Catholic Church, with a cathedral > >in Pittsburgh, and its observances (as at its large church in Chicago) > >borrow a great deal from Orthodox practice. > > I believe that a great many of the churches which once split away > from the church of Rome considered themselves the true catholic > chuch. > > Certainly the Anglicans do. The Anglican covenant says, > > "(1.1.1) its communion in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic > Church, worshipping the one true God, Father, Son, and Holy > Spirit." "One, holy, catholic, and apostolic" is from the Nicene Creed, which predates, or rather results from, the first heresy. And that is the non-name "catholic" meaning 'universal'.
From: Peter T. Daniels on 24 Feb 2010 02:08 On Feb 23, 7:07 pm, António Marques <antonio...(a)sapo.pt> wrote: > Hatunen wrote (23-02-2010 22:47): > > > I believe that a great many of the churches which once split away > > from the church of Rome considered themselves the true catholic > > chuch. > > > Certainly the Anglicans do. The Anglican covenant says, > > > "(1.1.1) its communion in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic > > Church, worshipping the one true God, Father, Son, and Holy > > Spirit." > > Of course they do. But when it comes to self-identify, only one church on > this planet consistenty refers to itself simply as 'the Catholic Church' (it > also uses other names, namely 'the Church', and where pragmatism requires > 'the Roman Catholic Church' - but the 'Roman' adds nothing, unlike 'Old' or > 'Polish National' - the RC doesn't see any added value in Roman, it doesn't > contribute to the meaning with anything that wasn't there before). > > Besides, until recently, no other church lived for a universal ('catholic') > vocation. Sure, many of them did have one, but not as a central structuring > element. Notice the RC was never 'the Italian Church' even when popes were > italian for centuries long. Doesn't _every_ extant Christian church use the Nicene Creed? (With or without the _filioque_.)
From: Peter T. Daniels on 24 Feb 2010 02:11 On Feb 23, 11:06 pm, António Marques <ento...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Feb 24, 1:14 am, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: > > > Ant nio Marques wrote: > > > It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal and > > > Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. > > > Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even > > wanted a church. > > 'Church' has many meanings. I don't know which one(s) you're thinking > of. In the KJV it's "Upon this Rock I found my church." "Tu es Petrus" and all that. There were in fact two rival churches already in the 1st century, one led by Paul in Rome (who was the more prolific writer) and one led by Peter and James the brother of Jesus in Jerusalem.
From: Peter T. Daniels on 24 Feb 2010 02:13 On Feb 23, 8:12 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: > Adam Funk wrote: > > On 2010-02-23, António Marques wrote: > > >> "Roman Catholic" ISN'T AN OFFICIAL SELF-DESIGNATION. ANYWHERE. > > > Are you going to write to all the churches in the UK with "St ____'s > > Roman Catholic Church" or "St ____'s R. C. Church" on their signs, > > newsletters, websites, etc., to tell them that they are wrong? (I > > think this is common in much of the USA too.) > > I won't try to claim such signs don't exist, but I don't remember ever > seeing one. The only way I can tell a church is RC is by the > architecture and usually by the name (saint I've never heard of or > long-winded way of saying Mary). Do you only visit villages so small that they have only one church, or so homogeneous that they only have a sprinkling of Protestant churches?
From: Peter T. Daniels on 24 Feb 2010 02:15
On Feb 23, 8:07 pm, Andrew Usher <k_over_hb...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > António Marques wrote: > > >> Well, I'm astounded. Indexing from 0 is so obviously the Right Way > > >> that I can't imagine why anyone would do it the other way. > > > > You always count items starting with 0? > > > It's a matter of stupid perspective. Since the array's position is the > > 'first', the 'first' element's position is the array's ('first') plus 0.. > > First plus 0 = first! > > Indeed, indexing is not the same thing as counting. If I were creating > a non-computer _indexing_ system, I would start from 0 as well. What would you be indexing? Books, for instance, don't have a p. 0. |