Thoughts are objects, mind and brain are identical
in [Physics]
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From: Tronscend on 15 Jun 2010 23:18 Hi, "Immortalista" <extropy1(a)hotmail.com> skrev i melding news:cb98da81-4358-45a7-a9c5-143f7ff38cd5(a)y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com... > One form of materialism is the view that mental states are identical > with brain states. To have a certain kind of mental state is the same > thing as having a certain type of brain state. To think a certain sort > of thought is to have a certain sort of thing happen in the brain. To > feel pain is to have another sort of thing happen in the brain. To > wish for good weather is to have another sort of thing happen in the > brain. This theory is called the mind-brain identity theory. It is probably correct (considering the alternatives), but it its probably not sufficient. I.e., comparing the "mind" to a "tv screen", the TV can show a lot of different films using only its such and such activated pixels - all of this is explicable in physics. But no physics can explain why Richard Burton in Graham Greene's "The Comedians" is jealous of E. Taylor, although we with absolute empirical certainty see him exhibiting all signs of jealousy on the tv screen during TCM's late night rerun of the movie. So there are a lot of levels of theory missing if u consider only the oscilloscope. There is narratology, too; etc.. > > Persons And Their World: An Introduction to Philosophy - Jeffrey Olen > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0075543117/ > > Mental states are objects, like tables or chairs. Perhaps not, if they are instantiations of information being captured by a physical substrate. The physical substrate being a certain state of capturing, instantiating or manifesting a certain type, amount or whatever parameter of information, does not mean that the mental state is an object like a table. A clear case of hylomorphism.... They are events, > like the kicking of a football. Thinking is a mental state, an object. > So are wishing and hoping and dreaming objects if objects are just > events. These are all mental events, things that we do. Therefore > there are such "objects" as thoughts, wishes, hopes,, or images. Category error. > What is the difference between an event and an object? No difference > because all known objects are events based upon interactive processes. > (Nominalism) An event is a happening, an occurrence. It is what > objects do, what happens to objects. Reread: 1. "What is the difference between an event and an object? No difference". 2. "An event is /.../ what happens to objects". If there is no diff between events and objects, how can an event happen to an object? This is a trivial response, made possible by the author's unsophisticated use of concepts. A little common language use phil analysis would go a long way here. Take, for example, the event of > kicking a football. If I kick a football, there are only two objects > involved-me and the ball. + the earth (gravity), air (friction), air II (wind), surface, sunlight (aim & visibility), technique... etc. ad infinitam. There is also the event of my kicking the > ball, but that event is not a third object True, we sometimes talk as > though there were such objects as kicks. We say that someone made a > good kick, or that a kick saved a game, or that a field-goal kicker > made five kicks during a game. But that is just a manner of speaking. > There are no such objects as kicks. Confusing "objects" and "realities (things)" as objects in the world (ontology) and objects, concepts or merely terms, words in language. Does a concept exist? How, when and where? ++++ Max naivete wrt "objects", as if they were simply something to be read off sensory impressions on account of their being 'pics of 'reality' ". The object calles a "hand" is slightly more comlex than granted in language. > Similarly, there are such objects as handshakes. If I shake a friend's > hand, the objects involved are my hand and my friend's hand. ... T
From: Olrik on 15 Jun 2010 23:53 Le 2010-06-15 21:12, BURT a �crit : > On Jun 15, 4:24 pm, Immortalista<extro...(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> One form of materialism is the view that mental states are identical >> with brain states. To have a certain kind of mental state is the same >> thing as having a certain type of brain state. To think a certain sort >> of thought is to have a certain sort of thing happen in the brain. To >> feel pain is to have another sort of thing happen in the brain. To >> wish for good weather is to have another sort of thing happen in the >> brain. This theory is called the mind-brain identity theory. >> >> Persons And Their World: An Introduction to Philosophy - Jeffrey Olenhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0075543117/ >> >> Mental states are objects, like tables or chairs. They are events, >> like the kicking of a football. Thinking is a mental state, an object. >> So are wishing and hoping and dreaming objects if objects are just >> events. These are all mental events, things that we do. Therefore >> there are such "objects" as thoughts, wishes, hopes,, or images. >> >> What is the difference between an event and an object? No difference >> because all known objects are events based upon interactive processes. >> (Nominalism) An event is a happening, an occurrence. It is what >> objects do, what happens to objects. Take, for example, the event of >> kicking a football. If I kick a football, there are only two objects >> involved-me and the ball. There is also the event of my kicking the >> ball, but that event is not a third object True, we sometimes talk as >> though there were such objects as kicks. We say that someone made a >> good kick, or that a kick saved a game, or that a field-goal kicker >> made five kicks during a game. But that is just a manner of speaking. >> There are no such objects as kicks. >> >> Similarly, there are such objects as handshakes. If I shake a friend's >> hand, the objects involved are my hand and my friend's hand. We can >> talk as though there were a third thing. We can say, for example, that >> I gave my friend a firm handshake, which is really like giving someone >> a firm container. To give a firm handshake is to shake hands firmly. >> That is, there is only the event of shaking hands, but no such object >> as a handshake. Shaking hands is something we do. > > The human brain is wired and netted to the truth. You can live that > way to get superior. Your wiring is defective. > Mitch Raemsch
From: Anthony Buckland on 16 Jun 2010 00:57 "Immortalista" <extropy1(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:cb98da81-4358-45a7-a9c5-143f7ff38cd5(a)y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com... > One form of materialism is the view that mental states are identical > with brain states. To have a certain kind of mental state is the same > thing as having a certain type of brain state. To think a certain sort > of thought is to have a certain sort of thing happen in the brain. To > feel pain is to have another sort of thing happen in the brain. To > wish for good weather is to have another sort of thing happen in the > brain. This theory is called the mind-brain identity theory. The brain has a lot more to do than have thoughts. Keeping the heart beating at appropriate rates is one example.
From: bigfletch8 on 16 Jun 2010 08:52 On Jun 16, 10:12 am, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:58:49 -0700 (PDT), "bigflet...(a)gmail.com" > > > > > > <bigflet...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >On Jun 16, 9:08 am, John Stafford <n...(a)droffats.ten> wrote: > >> In article <LWURn.39210$YG4.34...(a)newsfe10.ams2>, > > >> "Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: > >> > "Immortalista" <extro...(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> >news:cb98da81-4358-45a7-a9c5-143f7ff38cd5(a)y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com... > >> > | One form of materialism is the view that mental states are identical > >> > | with brain states. To have a certain kind of mental state is the same > >> > | thing as having a certain type of brain state. > > >> > Couldn't you just say software differs from hardware, or haven't > >> > you learnt about computers yet? The television is not the image on > >> > the screen or the sound in the speaker, the body is not the soul. > >> > Only engineers are interested in televisions, only surgeons are > >> > interested in anatomy. The rest of the world wants to laugh at > >> > the comedian on the screen or be shocked by the news. > >> > The mind is software, the brain is hardware. They are not the same. > >> > Go away, you are trivially not funny and intellectually boring. > > >> Excellent thread. > > >> The brain is not a binary thing. > > >> Should we express what we call software and hardware analogies when > >> addressing the human mind/brain issue? When we know that each term is > >> simply taken from the discourse of current technology. I would look for > >> another explanation of the relationship. The brain is not air, fire and > >> water. By the same measure, it is not analog/digital. > > >I hate to kill a million arguments, but I will anyway :-) > > >Light is made of light, brain is made of brain, mind is made of mind, > >and you are made of you. > > >The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. > > >Is That All It Is... > >Is That All It Is... > >Then Lets Go Dancing > >Bring Out The Booze > >Let's Have A Ball. > > >Thinking about thinking ,is similar to 'swimming about swimming'. > > 'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves > Did gyre and gimble in the wabe > All mimsy were the borogoves > And the mome raths ourgrabe- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Sounds like a change of medication is called for. BOfL
From: raven1 on 16 Jun 2010 10:33
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 05:52:28 -0700 (PDT), "bigfletch8(a)gmail.com" <bigfletch8(a)gmail.com> wrote: >On Jun 16, 10:12�am, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: >> On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:58:49 -0700 (PDT), "bigflet...(a)gmail.com" >> >> >> >> >> >> <bigflet...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >On Jun 16, 9:08�am, John Stafford <n...(a)droffats.ten> wrote: >> >> In article <LWURn.39210$YG4.34...(a)newsfe10.ams2>, >> >> >> �"Androcles" <Headmas...(a)Hogwarts.physics_z> wrote: >> >> > "Immortalista" <extro...(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message >> >> >news:cb98da81-4358-45a7-a9c5-143f7ff38cd5(a)y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com... >> >> > | One form of materialism is the view that mental states are identical >> >> > | with brain states. To have a certain kind of mental state is the same >> >> > | thing as having a certain type of brain state. >> >> >> > Couldn't you just say software differs from hardware, or haven't >> >> > you learnt about computers yet? The television is not the image on >> >> > the screen or the sound in the speaker, the body is not the soul. >> >> > Only engineers are interested in televisions, only surgeons are >> >> > interested in anatomy. The rest of the world wants to laugh at >> >> > the comedian on the screen or be shocked by the news. >> >> > The mind is software, the brain is hardware. They are not the same. >> >> > Go away, you are trivially not funny and intellectually boring. >> >> >> Excellent thread. >> >> >> The brain is not a binary thing. >> >> >> Should we express what we call software and hardware analogies when >> >> addressing the human mind/brain issue? �When we know that each term is >> >> simply taken from the discourse of current technology. I would look for � >> >> another explanation of the relationship. The brain is not air, fire and >> >> water. By the same measure, it is not analog/digital. >> >> >I hate to kill a million arguments, but I will anyway :-) >> >> >Light is made of light, brain is made of brain, mind is made of mind, >> >and you are made of you. >> >> >The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. >> >> >Is That All It Is... >> >Is That All It Is... >> >Then Lets Go Dancing >> >Bring Out The Booze >> >Let's Have A Ball. >> >> >Thinking about thinking ,is similar to 'swimming about swimming'. >> >> 'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves >> Did gyre and gimble in the wabe >> All mimsy were the borogoves >> And the mome raths ourgrabe- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > >Sounds like a change of medication is called for. Indeed. Tell your doctor that whatever he has you on, it isn't working. |