Unified FPGA Development Suite
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From: krw on 12 Oct 2009 21:08 On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 18:04:56 -0700 (PDT), MooseFET <kensmith(a)rahul.net> wrote: >On Oct 12, 5:11 am, krw <k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote: >> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 13:27:26 -0700 (PDT), MooseFET >> >> >> >> <kensm...(a)rahul.net> wrote: >> >On Oct 11, 1:10 pm, krw <k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote: >> >> On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 10:11:34 -0700 (PDT), MooseFET >> >> >> <kensm...(a)rahul.net> wrote: >> >> >On Oct 11, 8:32 am, krw <k...(a)att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote: >> >> >[...] >> >> >> >> Proprietary is enough to kill the deal. That's a major advantage of >> >> >> HDLs; all you need is a text editor and you're good to go. Indeed >> >> >> that's the one reason I won't use schematic entry for the data flow. >> >> >> Data flow is extremely tedious in HDL but locking it into a tool >> >> >> defeats a major purpose of HDLs. >> >> >> >Even things like having to work around bugs in the various compilers >> >> >makes for troubles in porting between tools. The Altera VHDL tool >> >> >doesn't do the right thing when you assign Z to a signal. You have to >> >> >use their tri() kludge. >> >> >> Haven't quite gotten that far with Altera yet, but is this in internal >> >> 'Z' or inferring a 'Z' in an IOB? >> >> >The assignment of the 'Z' was some layers deep and the signal came out >> >to a pin at the main level. >> >> Yes, that's a common problem. Xilinx has the same issue. The IOBs >> have to ge at the top level of hierarchy. :-( Actually, I find that >> to be good practice, but a PITA. >> >> >> >> >> Tool bugs are certainly a problem, enough that I'd dump a manufacturer >> >> if they were too buggy. Times have changed, though. >> >> >At least, they need to publish a list of them and the work-arounds for >> >them. >> >> For things like that there usually are, though not tabulated I guess. >> >> >> >> >> >It is too long ago now so I'd have to paw through the source code but >> >> >there was another thing that the Altera tools messed up on that was >> >> >more major. >> >> >> Things have gotten a *lot* better over the years. A decade ago I >> >> bought the Synplicity tools because Xilinx' were so messed up. I >> >> wouldn't today. >> >> >> >Cypress used to make CPLDs but unfortunately, I designed one of them >> >> >in so they decided to get out the business. Their development kit was >> >> >fairly nice. It wasn't as huge as some others and seemed to be >> >> >targeted at just doing what was needed to make VHDL get into an IC. >> >> >It didn't have a lot of mysterious features to mess you up. >> >> >[....] >> >> >> >> I misunderstood earlier. I was looking to switch schematic capture >> >> >> tools a few weeks ago but we're pretty much locked into Allegro. I'm >> >> >> pretty much stuck with Crapture. No point in going there, then. >> >> >> >If I didn't have to interface with others, I would use the GEDA >> >> >tools. They keep all the files in ASCII. This means that you can >> >> >make your own tools to do funny things you may decide are needed like >> >> >finding all the package types in the design etc. >> >> >> That's even easy with OrCAD Crapture. There are a lot of things like >> >> that are easy in Crapture. Unfortunately, other far more important >> >> things are impossible. :-( >> >> >I tried Crapture and after it munged the whole design, dropped it. I >> >use the clunky old DOS Orcad. It does all the things needed. >> >> I'd try the DOS version if I could. > >You may be able to lay your hands on a copy. They sold quite a few so >there should be a lot of honest copies out there not in use. Likely all in the landfill. >I run it under dosemu in a linux box. Not that it matters, but I can't do Linux. >>Crapture 15.7 crashes often >> (10-20 times a day, if I'm really using it) but usually saves on a >> crash. > >It is Windoz software. The default action is to crash without >warning. You need to go into the "hidden settings" dialog and set the >crash to "daily" instead of "random". This way at least you would >know that it will crash just once a day. Daily would sure be a step up! The funny thing is that it usually tells you that it's going to crash. "I'mmm crrraassshhhhiinnnnggg, do you want to save?". >What ever you do don't set your network up as a "windows domain" >network and save the schematics in any folder that windows created. >Make your own folder with your own name. For reasons that aren't >clear, a network error will cause it to mung the files if you don't do >this. Not sure I understand you. "Save as" doesn't seem to cause problems. Simply selecting a block of components and moving them is the most likely cause of a crash. >Never bring up "outlook" when Crapture is running. They interact in a >funny way that tanks Crapture. Hmm. Outhouse is always running. >> A couple of weeks ago it crashed taking all open files with >> it. Fortunately I'd just made a copy of all of the work. I "only" >> had to figure out what I'd done in the last couple of hours. It was >> only a day wasted. I wasted a lot more than that before figuring out >> that their hierarchy tools didn't work. > >I use the DOS one. The "place sheet" works fine but there is one >thing that you must never do. Never make two sheets in upper level >use the same file to do repeated circuits. The net list generation >doesn't work as documented in that case. It's not only the netlist. Nothing works, though it tries to fool you into thinking it did. Without "complex" hierarchies, hierarchies are rather useless.
From: krw on 12 Oct 2009 21:09 On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:09:53 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > >"David L. Jones" wrote: >> >> Altium's schematic-only (+FPGA/embedded) solution is either $999 outright or >> $49/month if your accountants prefer the 12month lease thing. > > > Somthing is wrong with your math: $49/month *12 = $588. Didn't say how many months. Ever bought a used car? ;-)
From: David L. Jones on 12 Oct 2009 22:10 Michael A. Terrell wrote: > "David L. Jones" wrote: >> >> Altium's schematic-only (+FPGA/embedded) solution is either $999 >> outright or $49/month if your accountants prefer the 12month lease >> thing. > > > Somthing is wrong with your math: $49/month *12 = $588. I didn't do any math: http://www.altium.com/products/altium-designer/en/altium-designer_home.cfm under the "pricing" tab. But oops, I did get the $999 wrong, it's $995. The two prices are not equivalent. The 12 month one times out and become useless after 12 months unless you keep paying more $$$. The $995 price is one-off for a perpetual license (i.e. never expires, use it forever) that's why you pay more for it. Dave. -- ================================================ Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast: http://www.eevblog.com
From: Michael A. Terrell on 13 Oct 2009 01:38 krw wrote: > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:09:53 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" > <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > >"David L. Jones" wrote: > >> > >> Altium's schematic-only (+FPGA/embedded) solution is either $999 outright or > >> $49/month if your accountants prefer the 12month lease thing. > > > > > > Somthing is wrong with your math: $49/month *12 = $588. > > Didn't say how many months. 'If your accountants prefer the 12month lease thing' sure implies 12 months. > Ever bought a used car? ;-) Yes, but I always paid cash. The only monthly bills I've ever had was the utilities & house payment. -- The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
From: krw on 13 Oct 2009 20:34
On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 01:38:21 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: > >krw wrote: >> >> On Mon, 12 Oct 2009 11:09:53 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" >> <mike.terrell(a)earthlink.net> wrote: >> >> > >> >"David L. Jones" wrote: >> >> >> >> Altium's schematic-only (+FPGA/embedded) solution is either $999 outright or >> >> $49/month if your accountants prefer the 12month lease thing. >> > >> > >> > Somthing is wrong with your math: $49/month *12 = $588. >> >> Didn't say how many months. > > > 'If your accountants prefer the 12month lease thing' sure implies 12 >months. ....and at the end of 12 months you have? > >> Ever bought a used car? ;-) > > > Yes, but I always paid cash. The only monthly bills I've ever had >was the utilities & house payment. That's just un-American! (That's all I have now, though we do buy things with the "no payment for 12 months" thing.) |