VOPS
in [Visual Objects]
|
From: Johel on 18 Nov 2005 18:11 Ginny, > Actually what I was thinking of was an included one-year support contract > with the purchase of a Vulcan.NET license. This would clear up issues > concerning frequency of bug fixes, since VOPS provides frequent updates, and > it would also fund continued development for Vulcan.NET. But it doesn't > matter what I think really, because Grafx has already announced pricing for > Vulcan. What they haven't announced yet is what the support and update > policies will be. ;-) OK. > Perhaps, but I consider VO a niche product already, and surely Vulcan.NET > will be too, at least initially. No. That's not correct. "Niche" is about specialization. For example, "Carolina Software, Inc. specializes in software for the waste disposal industry". That's a niche market. VO is a compiler. The compilers market is a very competitive one but it is not a niche market. A compiler can be used by hobbists at one side and by big companies/teams at the other side. VO problem is not the markte type, it's the competition. Same goes for any other language compiler (CULE, Vulcan, etc). > Although my apps are vertical, there is > great similarity between my apps and the Grafx products in that they are > both produced by small companies with limited resources. Companies' profile has nothing to do with products' profile. MS and Boeing are both huge and close to Seattle. And that's where the similarities end. Their products, strategy, marketing and markets are very different. >One thing wise > purchasers might want to consider is how likely it is that company will > still be around in a few years still enhancing the products they've invested > in. A business plan that includes a recurring revenue stream from > maintenance contracts tends to reassure people who do think about that sort > of thing. That's what I'm evaluating. The company with the best business model wins. And that means "charge as low as possible and stay alive". And to charge as low as possible a given company must use its resources as efficient as possible. Money is very expensive nowadays, even in USA. For example, what would be the best VOPS price? The higher it is the less customers it will have. The lower it is, the more customers it will have. That's a curve that has a maximum point. Find it and everybody wins: customers (VO users) and sellers (GrafxSoft). > Yes I think you should. Then your statements about what would move you to C# > would be backed up by some knowledge as to what effort that might entail. What effort that might entail? I already did that back in 2001. By then we did not know if there would be a VO.NET or not. Even you were going very fast toward C#. Then came CULE and now we have CULE and Vulcan. The only information missing is about Vulcan's TCO. I already have CULE TCO. And the total cost of moving everything to C# is a little lower now given that I do not need to buy MS-VS anymore, thanks to MS-VC# Express. Another (and a lot more important) point is that back in 2001 VO's DML+RDDs was a very important technology. But now I'm moving everything to SQL servers (Ingres and SQL Server Express) and so Clipper/VO DML+RDDs have no value for me anymore. That makes the move to C# a lot less costly, for example. But, for now, CULE has a good TCO and Vulcan is a product (including TCO) yet to be released. No need to go to C# although I will install and evaluate MS-VC# Express. > That is really the only way to decide if Vulcan (at whatever price) is a > good investment for you and your code. Correct. Regards, Johel
From: Ginny Caughey on 18 Nov 2005 18:37 Johel, > No. That's not correct. "Niche" is about specialization. For example, > "Carolina Software, Inc. specializes in software for the waste disposal > industry". That's a niche market. Xbase languages are a niche market too. I don't think any of us see Vulcan competing with C# or VB. It doesn't compete in the "compilers" category or it would lose for sure. It has to compete based on what it does that is special - compile VO code. > VO is a compiler. The compilers market is a very competitive one but it > is not a niche market. A compiler can be used by hobbists at one side > and by big companies/teams at the other side. My software can also be (and is) used by Fortune 500 companies operating across several states, governmental agencies operating a few or many sites, and mom-and-pop single site operations. They have different needs and different prices they are willing and able to pay, but they all need good service. I see Vulcan's situation as similar. > That's what I'm evaluating. The company with the best business model > wins. And that means "charge as low as possible and stay alive". But "charge as low as possible" isn't the only way to stay alive or even the surest. Then you are in the situation where you're competing with "free", and that's pretty hard to do if you're a small company with limited resources. Fortunately it's also possible to stay alive by doing something very well that so few others are doing that you can charge more for it, and that's an area that is particularly well suited to small companies without a lot of overhead and tiers of management. > What effort that might entail? I already did that back in 2001. By then > we did not know if there would be a VO.NET or not. Even you were going > very fast toward C#. I am still going very fast toward C#. I just see Vulcan as a tool that can help me get my VO code into that world too. It's very likely that my Vulcan apps will be extended with C# code rather than with new Vulcan code, but I won't know for sure until Vulcan is released. Then came CULE and now we have CULE and Vulcan. > The only information missing is about Vulcan's TCO. I already have CULE > TCO. And the total cost of moving everything to C# is a little lower > now given that I do not need to buy MS-VS anymore, thanks to MS-VC# > Express. Johel, if the diffference in price between C# Express (free) and another version of VS that costs, say, $500 even matters, then I have to assume you just don't have very much code to migrate or that you have people writing code for you for free. Similarly, the price of Vulcan.NET alone compared with VOPS which includes a Vulcan.NET license and also a year of support and updates is so small that it shouldn't really matter either assuming you make money from VO code and need the ability to get those updates in a timely fashion. Ginny
From: Sherlock on 19 Nov 2005 08:05 Ginny Well worth reading and supports what Johel is saying http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,39020463,39236745,00.htm
From: Ginny Caughey on 19 Nov 2005 08:18 Hi Phil, Let me make sure I understand: imported products are expensive relative to GDP in countries with a low GDP. Isn't that what's called a tautology? -- Ginny "Sherlock" <sherlock(a)sherlock.com.au> wrote in message news:1132405545.790655.301320(a)z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > Ginny > > Well worth reading and supports what Johel is saying > > http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,39020463,39236745,00.htm >
From: Johel on 19 Nov 2005 10:06
Ginny, > Xbase languages are a niche market too. I don't think any of us see Vulcan > competing with C# or VB. It doesn't compete in the "compilers" category or > it would lose for sure. It has to compete based on what it does that is > special - compile VO code. You're completely wrong. I have 3 options to go to DotNet: CULE, Vulcan and C#, in that order at the moment. Those 3 are _competing_ for my choice. Why to you think MS released MS-VC# Express for free? And even then C# is still my 3rd choice. That's _competition_ in the compilers market. > My software can also be (and is) used by Fortune 500 companies operating > across several states, governmental agencies operating a few or many sites, > and mom-and-pop single site operations. The size of your customers does not matter. Do you have a trial version? (If you have I would like to try it.) Do you have a hobbyist version? Do you have an educational version for high school? Of course you do not have because your software is niche vertical software. And be happy because that's what make you stay alive. If your market was not a niche market then MS would see it and destroy you. Here are some examples of non niche markets: operating systems, compilers, word processors, spreadsheets, databases, etc. > They have different needs and > different prices they are willing and able to pay, but they all need good > service. I see Vulcan's situation as similar. At one time you say a VOPS-only-for-1-year way to sell Vulcan would be good. And now you say that your customers "have different needs and different prices they are willing and able to pay, but they all need good service." That's fantastic. That's exactly what I think GrafxSoft should do. I have a different need for Vulcan than yours. I have a different price I'm willing to pay and that I'm _able_ to pay for Vulcan than you. I of course "need good service". So, given that that's your way to make deals with your customers, why don't you supports the same way for Vulcan? > But "charge as low as possible" isn't the only way to stay alive or even the > surest. Then you are in the situation where you're competing with "free", > and that's pretty hard to do if you're a small company with limited > resources. Everybody is or will compete with "free". Sometimes it is called piracy. > Fortunately it's also possible to stay alive by doing something > very well that so few others are doing that you can charge more for it, and > that's an area that is particularly well suited to small companies without a > lot of overhead and tiers of management. Again: companies' size does _not_ matter. The market's type does. We are all alive because we are all selling to niche vertical markets. Where is Nantucket? As I remember it was "doing something very well that so few others are doing that you can charge more for it, and that's an area that is particularly well suited to small companies without a lot of overhead and tiers of management." > I am still going very fast toward C#. I just see Vulcan as a tool that can > help me get my VO code into that world too. It's very likely that my Vulcan > apps will be extended with C# code rather than with new Vulcan code, but I > won't know for sure until Vulcan is released. OK. But then you're a very dangerous person to influence Vulcan and GrafxSoft. For you Vulcan is just "a tool that can help me get my VO code into that world too". And your main development language is C# as you are "still going very fast toward C#" and your apps "will be extended with C# code rather than with new Vulcan code". But that was more than expected given that you are an MVP. To have good business relationships with MS you (and anyone) _must_ use MS tools or else.... For me and the majority here in this NG CULE and/or Vulcan will be our main development language. > Johel, if the difference in price between C# Express (free) and another > version of VS that costs, say, $500 even matters, then I have to assume you > just don't have very much code to migrate The cost of VS2005, MSDN, etc here is a _lot_ more expensive. You really can't understand the World outside your neighborhood... worst than that; you do not want to learn. > Similarly, the price of Vulcan.NET alone compared > with VOPS which includes a Vulcan.NET license and also a year of support and > updates is so small that it shouldn't really matter either assuming you make > money from VO code and need the ability to get those updates in a timely > fashion. It is small to _you_! For Gods sake, do you think everybody in the World lives in North Carolina?????????????? I can't understand how you can be so good at programming and so d**** at everything else. Johel |