What do real scientist say about Abiogenesis:Alexandre Meinesz:
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From: Mark K Bilbo on 12 Jul 2010 23:32 On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:15:12 -0700, Joseki wrote: > Nope I didn't say that. I said Life like matter and energy can't be > created just transformed. Wouldn't that end the case for any creation at all? -- Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion ------------------------------------------------------------ "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!" -- Blair Houghton
From: Mark K Bilbo on 12 Jul 2010 23:33 On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:08:41 -0700, Joseki wrote: > On Jul 12, 2:21 pm, Mark K Bilbo <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: >> On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:55:53 -0700, Joseki wrote: >> > On Jul 11, 8:04 am, Sam Wormley <sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 7/11/10 5:49 AM, Joseki wrote: >> >> >> > On Jul 10, 9:29 pm, Sam Wormley<sworml...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> On 7/10/10 6:29 PM, Joseki wrote: >> >> >> >>> Well, that is a good question. I guess life is as old as Energy >> >> >>> and Matter. >> >> >> >> Neutral hydrogen and helium didn't exist for the first >> >> >> 382,000 years. The first stars able to synthesize carbon, >> >> >> nitrogen and oxygen didn't come into existence until ~ >> >> >> 400,000,000 years. >> >> >> > What is your point.... oh oh, I get it. The only place in the >> >> > universe that has life is,,, on earth eh? >> >> >> > Isn't that a bit narrow? >> >> >> Try--Life didn't appear until the chemistry of life was >> >> available. Hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen. >> >> > Oh... oh... I see... yeah, No other forms of life can not exist if >> > they do not have hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen. >> >> > How dumb of me. >> >> You've discovered life that can live without those things? >> >> Wow. Nobel Prize time! >> >> -- >> Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic >> Subversion ------------------------------------------------------------ >> "Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you're told. Religion >> is doing what you're told, not matter what is right." >> >> - Jerry Sturdivant > > Stephen Hawking gets it, since he talk about it first. Um... is there an English translation for that? -- Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423 EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion ------------------------------------------------------------ "You know, I'd get it if people were just looking for a way to fill the holes. But they want the holes. They wanna live in the holes. And they go nuts when someone else pours dirt in their holes. "Climb out of your holes people!" - Dr. House, on faith
From: Joseki on 13 Jul 2010 05:58 On Jul 12, 11:32 pm, Mark K Bilbo <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > On Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:15:12 -0700, Joseki wrote: > > Nope I didn't say that. I said Life like matter and energy can't be > > created just transformed. > > Wouldn't that end the case for any creation at all? > > -- > Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423 > EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion > ------------------------------------------------------------ > "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys > on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING > like Shakespeare!" > > -- Blair Houghton No. Dr. Craig Venter Created a synthetic Cell from known organic material. This cell has no parents. It is alive by definition.
From: nuny on 13 Jul 2010 06:51 On Jul 12, 4:15 pm, Joseki <jabriol2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Jul 12, 5:08 pm, "n...(a)bid.nes" <alien8...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 12, 4:20 am, Joseki <jabriol2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Jul 12, 4:59 am, "n...(a)bid.nes" <alien8...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 11, 6:54 pm, Joseki <jabriol2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 11, 7:01 am, "n...(a)bid.nes" <alien8...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 11, 3:47 am, Joseki <jabriol2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jul 10, 9:17 pm, Mark K Bilbo <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:29:14 -0700, Joseki wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Jul 10, 6:20 pm, Mark K Bilbo <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:02:36 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > In article <4c38b...(a)news.x-privat.org>, "Saint Heretica" > > > > > > > > >> > <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> >> "Jason" <Ja...(a)nospam.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > > >> >>news:Jason-0907102132490001(a)66-53-211-207.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com... > > > > > > > > >> >> > Your faith in Abiogenesis is as strong as the faith of Christians > > > > > > > > >> >> > in creation science. > > > > > > > > > >> >> You've been told many times in the past that there is no evidence > > > > > > > > >> >> for a > > > > > > > > >> >> magical "creation." There is much evidence for > > > > > > > > >> >> abiogenesis/evolution. It's been posted here many times for you over > > > > > > > > >> >> the years. You refuse to read it and discuss it rationally with > > > > > > > > >> >> anyone. You're still spouting the same nonsense you've been > > > > > > > > >> >> spouting for years. > > > > > > > > > >> > There is no proof that abiogenesis has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > >> So you believe life has existed forever? What about the apparent age of > > > > > > > > >> the universe? > > > > > > > > > > Well, that is a good question. I guess life is as old as Energy and > > > > > > > > > Matter. : "Energy can neither be created nor can be destroyed but only > > > > > > > > > can be transformed." so some people started to think energy is sacred or > > > > > > > > > eternal however when they said energy can not be created they do not > > > > > > > > > mean it is eternal but they mean it is not created from nothingness. > > > > > > > > > Since it can transform there is a start and finish of the transformation > > > > > > > > > per se. > > > > > > > > > Then there was a point where there was no life? > > > > > > > Do you mean to say that the feldspar paperweight on my desk is > > > > > > alive? > > > > > > You never know, maybe you can teach it some tricks. > > > > > So far, it has "stay" down pat, but that's about it. > > > > > Whether you accept Creation or Evolution, there was a point in time > > > > where there was no life. Get over it. > > > > Prove it. I mean use the scientific method and prove it. If you can't, > > > then Gazoo of the ultraverse started life and get over it. > > > Carefully read what I actually wrote, not what you want to imagine I > > wrote. > > > Creation argues that a deity assembled non-living matter and imbued > > it with life. That is a statement of fact; ask any Creationist. > > Craig Venter is God...NNNNNNNNNNoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo > > http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/scientists-create-first-sel... Not actually relevant. What they did was assemble a genome from scratch, then use it as a substitute for the genome in an already existing cell, which then used the synthesized DNA as if it were its own. The bacterium proceeded to make different proteins and eventually literally changed its species. > > Evolution argues that non-living matter can, under certain > > circumstances, self-assemble into living matter. That is a statement > > of fact; ask any Evolutionist. > > > In both cases there are assumed to be times when there was no living > > matter; in the Creationist case, before the deity got around to the > > task, and for Evolution, before the necessary circumstances existed. > > So in the creationist case the Deity that created Life was factually > dead or not alive to begin with. Things which qualify under human definitions (or even mere descriptions) of "alive" can die. Most Creationists will insist their deity is immortal. So, you're quite correct. > > You, however, seem to believe that all matter, whether or not it > > qualifies as "alive" by ordinary biochemistry, is "alive" in some > > sense. > > Nope I didn't say that. I said Life like matter and energy can't be > created just transformed. Where ever did you get that idea? > > Care to prove that using the scientific method? > > Nope, because I didn't say it. What you *did* say was: > I guess life is as old as Energy and Matter. Hence, you are stating that when matter and energy first came into existence, so did life. Would you care to try to describe the form of that life? Recall that most religious types will disagree violently with you; consider the Biblical book of Genesis for instance. > However with the scientific method I > can prove life comes from life. In Craig Venter who made the Synth > cell was quite alive when his team did this. Not relevant unless you are by implication asserting that life comes *only* from life. Mark L. Fergerson
From: nuny on 13 Jul 2010 06:57
On Jul 12, 5:39 pm, Ja...(a)nospam.com (Jason) wrote: > In article > <c5e44e17-eba2-41a0-bbe3-9816edec9...(a)l25g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, > > > > "n...(a)bid.nes" <alien8...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Jul 12, 4:20=A0am, Joseki <jabriol2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Jul 12, 4:59=A0am, "n...(a)bid.nes" <alien8...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Jul 11, 6:54=A0pm, Joseki <jabriol2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 11, 7:01=A0am, "n...(a)bid.nes" <alien8...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 11, 3:47=A0am, Joseki <jabriol2...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Jul 10, 9:17=A0pm, Mark K Bilbo <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:29:14 -0700, Joseki wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Jul 10, 6:20=A0pm, Mark K Bilbo <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:02:36 -0700, Jason wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > In article <4c38b...(a)news.x-privat.org>, "Saint Heretica" > > > > > > > > >> > <inva...(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> >> "Jason" <Ja...(a)nospam.com> wrote in message > > > > > > > > >> >>news:Jason-0907102132490001(a)66-53-211-207.lsan.mdsg-pacwes= > > t.com... > > > > > > > > >> >> > Your faith in Abiogenesis is as strong as the faith of = > > Christians > > > > > > > > >> >> > in creation science. > > > > > > > > > >> >> =A0You've been told many times in the past that there is = > > no evidence > > > > > > > > >> >> =A0for a > > > > > > > > >> >> magical "creation." =A0There is much evidence for > > > > > > > > >> >> abiogenesis/evolution. It's been posted here many times f= > > or you over > > > > > > > > >> >> the years. =A0You refuse to read it and discuss it ration= > > ally with > > > > > > > > >> >> anyone. =A0You're still spouting the same nonsense you've= > > been > > > > > > > > >> >> spouting for years. > > > > > > > > > >> > There is no proof that abiogenesis has ever taken place. > > > > > > > > > >> So you believe life has existed forever? What about the appa= > > rent age of > > > > > > > > >> the universe? > > > > > > > > > > Well, that is a good question. I guess life is as old as Ener= > > gy and > > > > > > > > > Matter. : "Energy can neither be created nor can be destroyed= > > but only > > > > > > > > > can be transformed." so some people started to think energy i= > > s sacred or > > > > > > > > > eternal however when they said energy can not be created they= > > do not > > > > > > > > > mean it is eternal but they mean it is not created from nothi= > > ngness. > > > > > > > > > Since it can transform there is a start and finish of the tra= > > nsformation > > > > > > > > > per se. > > > > > > > > > Then there was a point where there was no life? > > > > > > > =A0 Do you mean to say that the feldspar paperweight on my desk is > > > > > > alive? > > > > > > You never know, maybe you can teach it some tricks. > > > > > =A0 So far, it has "stay" down pat, but that's about it. > > > > > =A0 Whether you accept Creation or Evolution, there was a point in time > > > > where there was no life. Get over it. > > > > Prove it. I mean use the scientific method and prove it. If you can't, > > > then Gazoo of the ultraverse started life and get over it. > > > Carefully read what I actually wrote, not what you want to imagine I > > wrote. > > > Creation argues that a deity assembled non-living matter and imbued > > it with life. That is a statement of fact; ask any Creationist. > > > Evolution argues that non-living matter can, under certain > > circumstances, self-assemble into living matter. That is a statement > > of fact; ask any Evolutionist. > > > In both cases there are assumed to be times when there was no living > > matter; in the Creationist case, before the deity got around to the > > task, and for Evolution, before the necessary circumstances existed. > > > You, however, seem to believe that all matter, whether or not it > > qualifies as "alive" by ordinary biochemistry, is "alive" in some > > sense. > > > Care to prove that using the scientific method? > > Mark, > I understand what you are stating. I don't believe that things like atoms > and rocks are alive. > jason Neither do I. I am trying to get Joseki to clarify his position. So far he has not; it is possible he simply has not thought through the logical consequences of his statements. Mind you, I don't have a horse in this race; I'm neither a strict Creationist nor an Evolutionist, though I do have a scientific bent of mind and hence prefer Evolution on grounds of the body of evidence (though I'm not happy with many of the interpretations of that evidence). I'm an Apatheist; I don't care whether or not deities exist because they're so reticent about appearing "in the flesh" for the last couple thousand years. If they can't be bothered to make personal appearances, I'm not going to waste my time on them. Mark L. Fergerson |