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From: izzy on 25 Dec 2005 21:18 Peter wrote: >> there is no adoption route into english from hebraic (you might get some arabic sayings brought back by the crusaders, but that's it). << I *do* believe that Semitic languages have influenced IE languages more than most professional linguists have acknowledged. The genetic aspect of that influence is via a Nostratic-like ancestor. However, areal influences include: 1 - Physical proximity with Germani tribes originally inhabiting Anatolia and areas near the Caucasus mountains. I suspect the term Germani is derived from kHermes. My reconstructed (Phoenician) anthropomorphic map of Hermes in Asia minor has his cranium in the Ukraine, his left shoulder [KaSeF] at the Caspian sea, his heart [Gk cardia] at Kurd-istan, his biceps at Pontus < Gk pontiki, his elbow [KiFooF-yaD] was Cappadocia, his wrist [m'FaReK yad] was at Phrygia, his navel at Mt kHermon (then part of Lebanon, the reversal of Skt nabhila = navel), ... his knee [BeReX] in Bahrain, and his right [YeMiN] foot in Yemen. 2 - The impact of Aramaic as a lingua franca for almost 600 years. At that time, the world was not the global village it is today, but words do tend to be borrowed into other languages (especially) from the current lingua franca. 3 - Contact with Phoenician explorers and merchants. The Phoenicians obtained tin in Cornwall, England. They may have obtained iron [BaRZeL] in Brazil. ;-) 4 - The influence of the Carthaginians in S.E. Spain and northern Italy. Hannibal [247-183] crossed the Alps into Italy during the 2nd Punic war. My body-part map of Aphrodite indicates that her face [PaNim] was lost during the 3rd Punic war. The rest of her is still there in north Africa. Her reversed cranium is now Morocco. It still has a Fez. The Atlas mountains [atlas: 3. first cervical vertebra] support her head. Her hair [Sa3aRos] is the Sahara desert. Her chin [SaNTir] reverses to Tunisia. Her backbone [SHiDRa] is the Gulf of Sidra. Her heart [LeV] is Lybia. Her breast [SHaD] is Chad. Her narrow [TZaR] waist is Misr/Mitzraim. Her side [TZaD] is Sudan. And her left [SMoL] leg is Somalia. Hermes and Aphrodite are connected, literally, at Sinai, a part of her body that contains a part of his (the desert of tZin). But that's another email. For more information about anthropomorphic (body part) maps, visit the BPMaps website at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/ 5 - Following the Roman conquest of Israel, Jews dispersed to several European areas. Jews were expelled from England in 1290 by Edward I. There must have been more than a few there to warrant their expulsion. Many of those driven out of Spain in 1492 moved to Holland. 6 - The Crusades brought Europeans to the "Holy Land": First Crusade 1095-1099 Second Crusade 1147-1148 Third Crusade 1189-1192 Fourth Crusade 1202-1204 Fifth Crusade 1218-1221 Sixth Crusade 1228-1229 Seventh Crusade 1248-1254 7 - About 5 centuries of Moorish control in Spain, from about 715 to 1260. Moorish control of Granada ended in 1492. In 1588, the Spanish armada was defeated in the English Channel. The remainder of the armada sailed north, around Scotland, then south through the Irish sea. Due to storms and lack of provisions, some of that fleet landed in Ireland and Wales. Typically the officers were ransomed but the (sometimes Arabic speaking) crews were absorbed by the local population. In Ireland, the result is called "Black Irish". 8 - The Bible has been translated into more languages than any other text. The Old Testament was originally written mostly in Hebrew. Words which could not easily be translated were transliterated and borrowed into the target language. For example: leviathan, literally, jackal/teeth that accompany (you at sea), probably a pilot whale (where PiLoT is a reversal of DoLPhin). 9 - Some Hebrew words have entered other languages via Yiddish. For example: gunmoll < Yiddish < Heb GaNaV = to steal + MaLWeH = one who accompanies; hence, a female companion of a criminal. Compare this LW with that in LeWiaTHaN (using W for vav). >> Next you'll be suggesting that "to take a powder" has an origin in a mistranslation from the dead sea scrolls! << Peter, you are really getting good at this. The only thing wrong with that idea is that I didn't think of it myself. :-) The Semitic word you are thinking of is peh-het-dalet PaXaD. As a noun it means fear, fright, awe. As a verb it means to fear, be afraid. Today it is pronounced PaKHaD. But when the aleph had a het-like oCHT or oCHS sound, the het had a W-sound, like Greek digamma and Germanic Wynn. So, PaWaD probably is cognate with powder in the sense of "take a powder". That is, to leave or run away (originally, due to fear). The now English parallel for the Hebrew letter het is *usually* W. Not H and not CH, as in Haifa and Chanukah. Giving the het a W-sound, XaRSiNa (from XeReS = pottery, clay + SiNa = China) is China-ware. Today we have hardware and software, but the original wares were made of XeReS: amphora, bottles, pots, dishes, etc. Actually, computer chips are made of silicon. :-) Treating het as W explains such mysteries as Welsh rabbit. This phrase is merely a list of its ingredients: cheese/milk + ale + toast. It probably entered English via Arabic. XaLav = milk, cheese WeL SHakhaR = ale, beer SH Ra PaT lexem = toast BBiT Thanks for discovering the origin of "take a powder". I might never have noticed that one. ciao, Israel "izzy" Cohen BPMaps moderator
From: Peter T. Breuer on 27 Dec 2005 14:53 In comp.os.linux.misc izzy <cohen.izzy(a)gmail.com> wrote: (mostly pseudo-academic nonsense) > Peter wrote: >>> there is no adoption route into english from hebraic (you might get some arabic sayings brought back by the crusaders, but that's it). << > I *do* believe that Semitic languages have influenced IE languages more > than most professional linguists have acknowledged. The genetic aspect > of that influence is via a Nostratic-like ancestor. > However, areal influences include: > 1 - Physical proximity with Germani tribes originally inhabiting > Anatolia and areas near the Caucasus mountains. I suspect There's no "proximity" there! Those are different parts of the world, separated at least by the persians (the original aryan tribes, as I understand it) and a sea, several rivers, etc. Yes, we know that we speak IE, and that before rome celtic IE languages were spoken throughout europe (being pushed west by the influx of germanic/arayan tribes, speaking new and different IE). Your reasoning is that the hebrews influenced the aryans while they were still in persia? That's three thousand years ago! > the term Germani is derived from kHermes. Oh yeah? I seem to recall Julius Ceasar noting in his journals that the tribes he encountered identified themselves as Germani as a whole. The germani originated in the baltic sea area. > his navel at Mt kHermon (then part of Lebanon, the reversal of Skt > nabhila = navel), ... his knee [BeReX] in Bahrain, (bwahaha) > and his right [YeMiN] foot in Yemen. > 2 - The impact of Aramaic as a lingua franca for almost 600 years. Only in spain and north africa. Arabic loans in spanish are easily recognisable - "almeria" = "the seaside". Yes, the romans might have taken carthaginian words early on, and spread them later, but defeated peoples do not generally have their language spread. The best route is indeed via arabic stems introduced into ancient latin via commerce. > that time, the world was not the global village it is today, but words > do tend to be borrowed into other languages (especially) from the > current lingua franca. Which is that of the current dominant power (because each person's optimal life strategy is to align fully with the dominant power). > 3 - Contact with Phoenician explorers and merchants. The Phoenicians > obtained tin in Cornwall, England. They > may have obtained iron [BaRZeL] in Brazil. ;-) That's silly. Iron happens to be NOT part of new-world civilization skills. They never got either the wheel or iron. Getting iron from THERE would run counter to every possible observation and understanding. > 4 - The influence of the Carthaginians in S.E. Spain and northern Well, the spanish later were overrun by the romans, and later by the moors, and then the 'ol aryan tribes moved in too. Losers don't win the language war either. > 5 - Following the Roman conquest of Israel, Jews dispersed to several > European areas. Yiddish is a germanic language and would have influenced sibling languages. But where's the hebraic? > Jews were expelled from England in 1290 by Edward I. > There must have been more than a few there to warrant their expulsion. Well, I think the number is known, and would not have been that many. They only entered england in the eleventh century (from france) anyway. I would have guessed maybe 60,000 (since 3000 were imprisoned by edward 1 for ransom just before the expulsion). Oh - we do know. 16,000, from wikipedia: any expulsions during the Middle Ages and Enlightenment in Europe, including: 1290, 16,000 Jews were expelled from England, see the (Statute of Jewry) > Many of those driven out of Spain in 1492 moved to Holland. Neither of these facts is significant. They would not have influenced the common language in either place - except perhaps in specialist words connected with their trades. > 6 - The Crusades brought Europeans to the "Holy Land": This is the route I outlined as being plausible for importing some words. > 7 - About 5 centuries of Moorish control in Spain, from about 715 to No influence on english. > provisions, some of that fleet landed in > Ireland and Wales. Typically the officers were ransomed but the > (sometimes Arabic speaking) crews were absorbed by > the local population. In Ireland, the result is called "Black Irish". Pshaaaaaawww. And what about all the red indians from Brazil? > 8 - The Bible has been translated into more languages than any other > text. The Old Testament was originally written > mostly in Hebrew. Words which could not easily be translated were > transliterated and borrowed into the target language. Nonsense - the greek is the only language in which the OLD bible ever reached europe, and the new testament was in latin. > For example: leviathan, literally, jackal/teeth that accompany (you at This is the name of an old-testament monster. It has no need of translation, since it is a name. > sea), probably a pilot whale (where PiLoT is a reversal > of DoLPhin). Pshuiiiiie. > 9 - Some Hebrew words have entered other languages via Yiddish. For > example: gunmoll < Yiddish < Heb GaNaV = to steal + Yiddish probably has hebraic words in, but they don't affect english. There might be some words in modern german. I have never heard of "gunmoll" - to me it looks like a pair of gun and moll. Moll is itself an old english word, though I forget where it comes from. > MaLWeH = one who accompanies; hence, a female companion of a criminal. Eh? If that's a word, it is not one I know! In german, it has the connotation of "weh" (pain, or evil), and "mal" (latinate word with the same kind of sense). I would assume it means "double trouble". It could be related to "weg" (way) and "mahl" (meal or fodder - esp for animals), meaning a tag-along for profit. If you like I'll make up some other more likely meanings. Maybe a "madl wer", from the old germanic maiden, and war. > Compare this LW with that in LeWiaTHaN > (using W for vav). >>> Next you'll be suggesting that "to take a powder" has an origin in a >>>mistranslation from the dead sea scrolls! << > Peter, you are really getting good at this. The only thing wrong with > that idea is that I didn't think of it myself. :-) The Semitic word you > are thinking of is peh-het-dalet PaXaD. As a noun it means fear, > fright, awe. As a verb it means to fear, be afraid. > Today it is pronounced PaKHaD. But when the aleph had a het-like oCHT > or oCHS sound, the het had a W-sound, like Greek digamma and Germanic > Wynn. So, PaWaD probably is cognate with powder in the sense of "take a > powder". That is, to leave or run away (originally, due to fear). > The now English parallel for the Hebrew letter het is *usually* W. Not > H and not CH, as in Haifa and Chanukah. Giving the het a W-sound, > XaRSiNa (from XeReS = pottery, clay + SiNa = China) is China-ware. > Today we have hardware and software, but the original wares were made > of XeReS: amphora, bottles, pots, dishes, etc. Actually, computer chips > are made of silicon. :-) > Treating het as W explains such mysteries as Welsh rabbit. This phrase > is merely a list of its ingredients: cheese/milk + ale + toast. It > probably entered English via Arabic. > XaLav = milk, cheese WeL > SHakhaR = ale, beer SH Ra > PaT lexem = toast BBiT > Thanks for discovering the origin of "take a powder". I might never > have noticed that one. I believe that takes the biscuit. Peter
From: Michael Heiming on 27 Dec 2005 15:41 In comp.os.linux.misc Peter T. Breuer <ptb(a)oboe.it.uc3m.es>: [ academic language history contribution ] Thx Peter, great write-up! ;-) BTW Ever used 'amarok'? http://amarok.kde.org/ Rocks so far! -- Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94) mail: echo zvpunry(a)urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/' #bofh excuse 10: hardware stress fractures
From: "REMOVE wyattthis" <"REMOVE on 27 Dec 2005 16:45 Peter T. Breuer wrote: > In comp.os.linux.misc izzy <cohen.izzy(a)gmail.com> wrote: [...] > but defeated > peoples do not generally have their language spread. [...] > [...] >>4 - The influence of the Carthaginians in S.E. Spain and northern > > Well, the spanish later were overrun by the romans, and later by the > moors, and then the 'ol aryan tribes moved in too. Losers don't > win the language war either. These points are not universally accurate. The Carthaginians did not spread their language, and losers (e.g. the Roman Gauls and Spaniards) kept their language while their Germanic conquerors did not keep theirs. My source is the very interesting book: _Empires_of_the_Word:_alanguage_history_of the_world by Nicholas Ostler. -- Bill Wyatt (REMOVE wyattthis at_cfa-harvard-edu) "remove this" for email Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory (Cambridge, MA, USA)
From: Peter T. Breuer on 27 Dec 2005 17:10
In comp.os.linux.misc Michael Heiming <michael+USENET(a)www.heiming.de> wrote: > BTW > Ever used 'amarok'? > http://amarok.kde.org/ They misspelled "anorak". What IS that word? Peter |