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From: blmblm on 18 Dec 2005 11:54 In article <1134864245.769435.14840(a)g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, <cohen.izzy(a)gmail.com> wrote: >Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz wrote: > >> I believe that regardless of the languages, people have trouble >> with idioms when going from one language to another. > >That's because the idiom itself is a target language-ification of >a foreign source-language expression. > >For example: "(he has) an axe to grind" is the transliteration >of a German phrase: "Acht(ung) Grund" meaning >"pay attention/beware/ be aware + reason/basis/grounds". >Beweggrund = "motive". This phrase is said when someone >has an ulterior motive. See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=a&p=26 for a different etymology, one which I heard mentioned in alt.usage.english not too long ago. No claims which is right, but I find the other equally plausible. [ snip ] -- | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
From: Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz on 18 Dec 2005 11:58 In <1134864245.769435.14840(a)g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, on 12/17/2005 at 04:04 PM, cohen.izzy(a)gmail.com said: >That's because the idiom itself is a target language-ification of a >foreign source-language expression. Sometimes, but I doubt that the majority have that origin. A common source of idioms is from biblical or literary passages that are in the common culture of a country and are meaningless to someone from a different culture who is not familiar with the text. An example is "ratzachta vgam yarashta"[1], a Hebrew idiom referring to chutzpah. A nonbiblical example is "tilting at windmills". Another source of idioms is ham-handed[2] translations of idioms from another language. A classic example is the American idiom "I could care less", which is the result of truncating a Yiddish idiom. Valid translations are "Ask me if I could care less" and "I could care less?". >"Kick the bucket" is probably an example of Type 1b. Using 3 for the >Semitic letter aiyin at a time when the aiyin had a velar G/K-sound >as in 3aZa = Gaza, Semitic 3aGaV B'3a:DeN means "make (physical) >love in Paradise". This euphemism for dying transliterates as KicK >BucKeT. I can't figure out any Hebrew word that fits that transliteration, nor what letters the ' and : represent. [1] You've murdered and also inherited. [2] Note that inflection is a very significant part of Yiddish dialog. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT <http://patriot.net/~shmuel> Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action. I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail. Reply to domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me. Do not reply to spamtrap(a)library.lspace.org
From: Tobias Brox on 19 Dec 2005 01:06 [JosephKK] > Actually English is one of the most difficult languages to learn either a > first language or a second language. Mandarin and Russian are also > difficult. I know nearly nothing about it, but from what I've heard about Russians living in excile in Beijing, the children learned Mandarin long before they learned Russian. Of course that can have something to do with exposure, however, as I've understood it Mandarin is built up by meaningful monosyllables while Russian words tend to be rather long. I notice that myself as well, my son has a Russian word, and there are quite many simple words in Norwegian that are quite long and complicated in Russian. For a baby, the simplest words are of course easiest. I suppose, for that reason, "mama/mamma" and "papa/pappa" is nearly the same in quite some unrelated languages. Finnish and Hungarian seems to be quite difficult languages, btw. -- This signature has been virus scanned, and is probably safe to read Tobias Brox, 69?42'N, 18?57'E
From: Tobias Brox on 19 Dec 2005 01:18 [Peter T. Breuer] > In madrid it would be about as much of a problem as it would be finding > people who speak spanish in england. Oh, are there much people speaking Spanish in England? > You have no chance negotiating for a lamb > chop in english at the butcher's. To find help, one would indeed need to search for English-speakers at your side of the counter, not the other side ... > You have no chance in any shop I can think of, EXCEPT at the big > department store chain (there is only one). El Corte Ingles? > On the tourist coasts of > course the situation is different. > >> It's just to look a bit around, find a young person with >> 'academical look', and the chances for a positive reply to "excuse >> me, do you speak English?" are pretty high. > "Young person" is obviously indicated as a bayesian selector with good > success rate. But don't try it in the more deprived suburbs, and not if > the young person in question has a skinhead cut and a nose ring. Same > as in england. Then again, 'Skinhead cut and nose ring' does not really match 'academical look'. >> Yes, I also have difficulties. Russians in Norway also have problems >> with our "kj"-sound. > Does that start a word? Can only imagine it followed by a vowel! I suppose 'kj' is always followed by a vowel (can't think of any counter-examples), and is often used to start words. -- This signature has been virus scanned, and is probably safe to read Tobias Brox, 69?42'N, 18?57'E
From: Tobias Brox on 19 Dec 2005 01:22
[Peter T. Breuer] >> through). Tip of tonge more down. (Typical pronunciations of "sh" has the >> tip of the tongue quite high. With "kj", the air restriction is quite > Oh, I see, it is a sort of "zsj". Maybe like "zsa zsa" (but a bit more > punch to it) in "zsa zsa gabor". There is no s-sound in kj. Though, from the younger generation many are replacing the 'kj'-sound with 'sj'. I had problems myself pronouncing 'kj' correctly when I was a child - that ruined my dialect, as I'm supposed to say 'ikkje' for not. -- This signature has been virus scanned, and is probably safe to read Tobias Brox, 69?42'N, 18?57'E |