No comment on the press conference?
in [UK Mac]
|
From: zoara on 22 Jul 2010 19:40 Sak Wathanasin <sw(a)nan.co.uk> wrote: > On 21 July, 17:24, zoara <m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > >> If I bought a PAYG SIM I'd have to take it back even if the unit > > worked >> for me. > > What on earth for? Hardly worth the effort - I'd keep it in my bits > drawer; never know when it might come in useful. Seems like a very expensive thing to keep in a bits drawer. If I bought a "trial" PAYG iPhone for £600-odd then decided I wanted one, keeping it and just getting a contract would cost me £400 more than just getting a handset for £200 as part of the contract. I don't know what the actual prices are, but I know that buying a PAYG iPhone then getting a contract for it costs a lot more than just buying a contract iPhone. Maybe I've missed something...? > As to cost of calls, > I was thinking in terms of a week's trial. I was thinking of the costs afterwards. It had never occurred to me to buy it on PAYG and then drop the PAYG SIM in a drawer, for the reason above. I still don't get why I would bother to buy something I have several times more chance of returning than I do of keeping, though. > I don't wither on the > phone, so in my case, it'd be the odd pound or 2, but if the length of > your posts are anything to go by, it may indeed be a non-trivial > amount in your case. Surely the opposite? >>>> I'm interested in knowing whether some units suffer less than other >>>> because that will point to a manufacturing issue rather than a > > > > design >>>> issue >> >>> Neither, if I heard what Jobs said correctly: >> >> Sorry, I don't understand. > > I meant "neither a manufacturing issue nor a design issue", it's just > a property of antennae. Except other phones don't have the same degree of effect with the way many people hold the phone in normal use; so what causes that difference? It has to be either design (all units suffer to the same degree) or manufacturing (some units suffer worse than others). Or do you believe Apple's spin that the iPhone's problem is no worse than any other phone's? >>> they knew there would be a signal drop, but putting it outside the >>> case meant it pulled in more signal to start with. In most cases, > > > the >>> improvement far offsets the signal drop when you hold it. >> >> Depending *how* you hold it. > > Isn't that what I said earlier? Touching an antenna causes it to be > detuned to a greater or lesser extent depending on where you touch it. That's not what I meant. In my experience, "the improvement offsets the signal drop when you hold it" only if you hold it the right way. If you hold it the wrong way, it doesn't; it performs far worse than an iPhone 3G. Given that I (and many people in Apple's own advertising campaigns) hold it the wrong way, it is a phone that performs worse than what I have. >> 0.05% of Applecare users does not equate to 0.05% of users being >> dissatisfied. What percentage of annoyed users don't have Applecare? > > None - everyone gets Applecare for the first 90 days. I didn't know that. I wonder how many iPhone users know that? >> What percentage do, but don't call? It's an obfuscating figure, just >> like the "one more call dropped per hundred", and does more to > > confuse >> the issue (in Apple's favour) than it does to clarify. > > Well if they are not sufficiently affected to neither call nor return > the phone, We weren't talking about returning the phone, that's a much more sensible metric. > then presumably it works well enough for them. Do you have > a better metric? What difference does it make if I do? A crappy metric being the best available doesn't stop it from being a crappy metric. But in answer to the question; return rate. Not great, but better than AppleCare calls. I'd also question how these were measured. Percentage of total Applecare calls across all product lines, or just the iPhone 4? Return rate at Apple Stores, AT&T stores, online, or all? What dates? I can't be bothered to find out what they said, just making a point about how easy it is for them to fudge the figures in their favour. -z- -- email: nettid1 at fastmail dot fm
From: Sak Wathanasin on 23 Jul 2010 07:30 On 23 July, 00:40, zoara <m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > I don't know what the actual prices are, but I know that buying a PAYG > iPhone then getting a contract for it costs a lot more than just buying > a contract iPhone. Maybe I've missed something...? Lat time I looked, it was cheaper to buy the phone outright, then go onto something like the O2 "simplicity" contract or the Tesco's one, than to get one on a 12 or 24 mth contract. Don't know how much they'd charge for a PAYE SIM, but I suspect it's not much - O2 just gave me one for the iPad. Buy a tenner's airtime and that would be the incremental cost of the trial. > Except other phones don't have the same degree of effect with the way > many people hold the phone in normal use; so what causes that > difference? The antenna is on the outside! You can call it a design flaw if you want, but to me it was a deliberate trade-off. They'd have to put the antenna back inside the case to "fix" this.
From: zoara on 23 Jul 2010 09:35 Gwynne Harper <g.harper(a)gmx.line> wrote: > zoara <me18(a)privacy.net> wrote: > >> Oooh, that may just have made me reconsider -if the worst-case data > > rate >> is better than the best-case 3G data rate, then where's the problem? > > That's my reading of the situation, but that may be my reality > distortion field kicking in. It jars against my experience - No Signal is going to give a zero data rate, which is lower than a 3GS - so I'm puzzled. Next time I'm near an iPhone 4 I might have a play. -z- -- email: nettid1 at fastmail dot fm
From: zoara on 23 Jul 2010 10:07 Sak Wathanasin <sw(a)nan.co.uk> wrote: > On 23 July, 00:40, zoara <m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: > >> I don't know what the actual prices are, but I know that buying a > > PAYG >> iPhone then getting a contract for it costs a lot more than just > > buying >> a contract iPhone. Maybe I've missed something...? > > Lat time I looked, it was cheaper to buy the phone outright, then go > onto something like the O2 "simplicity" contract or the Tesco's one, > than to get one on a 12 or 24 mth contract. I'm exceptionally dubious about this, as a couple of friends were keeping an eye on the prices as they were announced; one of us wants PAYG and insisted it was not only cheaper for him, but for us as well (with our higher consumption of minutes). But if you say that's the case, then I will certainly have a look, but only if I decide to get an iPhone 4... which I still probably won't, as there's still too high a chance it won't work for me (because it's more likely to be a design flaw than a manufacturing flaw). >> Except other phones don't have the same degree of effect with the way >> many people hold the phone in normal use; so what causes that >> difference? > > The antenna is on the outside! You can call it a design flaw if you > want, but to me it was a deliberate trade-off. I'm not questioning whether it was a flaw - that's subjective - but whether the issues seen are down to design or manufacturing. The question isn't "flaw or not flaw?", it's "manufacturing or design?". > They'd have to put the > antenna back inside the case to "fix" this. Well, no. The point is perhaps made with an analogy: Apple releases a car with steel tyres. They have looked at the way other manufacturers do things, and realised you get increased fuel efficiency and need to replace your tyres less often if they're steel instead of rubber. Once it makes it out to the public, many people complain that the ride is very uncomfortable. The situation is confused for a while because people who usually use motorways are saying there's no problem, and people who use country roads are amazed that there are people who can't see the issue. The difference between it being a design issue or a manufacturing issue is this: if Apple knew that the ride was uncomfortable but thought it didn't matter, it's a design issue. If they added superior shock absorbers which compensated for the ride *but didn't work properly in some of the cars they sold* then it's a manufacturing issue. Faced with some people saying the ride is rough and others saying it is fine, I'm trying to untangle whether they drive on different roads, have differing driving styles, or some of the cars are faulty where others are not. Putting an aerial on the outside of a phone flies in the face of accepted wisdom of "how this should be done", in the same way putting steel tyres on a car does. To actually make that choice is a design decision, obviously. Not compensating correctly for the issues that arise from that design decision is what is in question. Is there a designed-in compensation that isn't working in all/most units, or did they simply not design in any compensation at all? It looks like the latter; it hasn't really been very certain - because of the poor testing people have been doing - that it was the latter until Apple's conference. They might have said their weebly-widget compensator (in hardware or software) was not performing as they expected on all units, but they didn't. So it's looking like a design decision... which is exactly why I don't see why I should bother to go out and buy one, as every one will behave the same as those I've tried. I really hope that clears up what I'm trying to say! -z- -- email: nettid1 at fastmail dot fm
From: Woody on 23 Jul 2010 10:28
On 23/07/2010 15:07, zoara wrote: > Sak Wathanasin<sw(a)nan.co.uk> wrote: >> On 23 July, 00:40, zoara<m...(a)privacy.net> wrote: >> >>> I don't know what the actual prices are, but I know that buying a >>> PAYG >>> iPhone then getting a contract for it costs a lot more than just >>> buying >>> a contract iPhone. Maybe I've missed something...? >> >> Lat time I looked, it was cheaper to buy the phone outright, then go >> onto something like the O2 "simplicity" contract or the Tesco's one, >> than to get one on a 12 or 24 mth contract. > > I'm exceptionally dubious about this, as a couple of friends were > keeping an eye on the prices as they were announced; one of us wants > PAYG and insisted it was not only cheaper for him, but for us as well > (with our higher consumption of minutes). Tesco contract is £219 for the phone, then 12 months at £35 month for 750 mins and unlimited texts. Unless a year on simplicity is £40, I don't see how it can be cheaper. It seems quite a bit more expensive. -- Woody |