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From: Joerg on 31 Mar 2006 19:50 Hello David, > >>Even the Romans knew that body and state of mind go together: "Mens sana >>in corpore sano". > > Assuming there is a mind-body connection, how can you figure out what is > cause and what is effect? ... Well, you can't. For me (personally) it's a matter of faith. For others it's a matter of just not giving up, no matter what. Or both. > ... Maybe the people who have a positive attitude > can somehow sense that they are going to recover, or maybe they just feel > better because of something in the physical state of their bodies. The > others may somehow know that they are too sick, or they may just feel > worse. > Of course I cannot speak for anybody who had cancer since I never went through that myself. But from seeing many others go through it I observed some things. For example, when you drive them to appointments where they will hear intermediate results (happens very often in leukemia cases) some are worried sick the whole trip. They stare at the dashboard and you can't strike up any decent conversation. Others hop in the car and either say "I'll just have to take it one step at a time, no matter what the doc says today" or "It's in God's hands anyway". After that, it's a conversation just like with someone who isn't sick. Yeah, they'll still worry at times but it doesn't consume their mind. Sometimes worry comes in phases and can be eased, big time. We had quite a number of breast cancer cases in the neighborhood and at my former workplace. Lots of despair. Then their faces lit up when they saw strangers walking in with several pots of delicious meals every day when they were too weak from chemo. Most of them had never experienced this level of support and it really changed them, and their attitude towards the disease. So did their families. Even when the patient didn't make it all this lasted, there was a purpose in it. Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com
From: Frank Bemelman on 1 Apr 2006 05:00 "John Fields" <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> schreef in bericht news:9udr2219a006ltmk7s0rilinfc1i7n5nio(a)4ax.com... > On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:05:43 +0200, "Frank Bemelman" > <f.bemelmanq(a)xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote: > > > >Okay, but those cancers are a *LOT* less agressive than liver or lung > >cancer. Here you mention cancers that already have a 80+ or better > >chance of surviving. > > --- > What are you talking about? No cancer has a chance of surviving if > it kills its host unless it's put into the ground and given a chance > to emerge again. > --- A few messages ago I said: "Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an insult to make patients believe this is an important factor, almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true looser." If "fighting" is just doing what the doctor proposes, I say you're right. If "fighting" means the usual pep talk "You can do it", I say no. And I say that in the context of what started this thread; a person with an extremely severe form/stage of cancer. If you don't treat breast cancer, it will kill the patient. If you do treat it, and the treatment was not started too late, there is a great chance of succes. In such case, it's okay to tell a person to "fight" (as in showing will power etc), because there is very good chance of succes. Now, if a person has a more agressive kind cancer like throat/lung/colon/liver cancer or a combination of that, the chances are pretty grim if not next to nothing. You can have all the will power in the world, but it is not going to help you. To tell someone it is all a matter of "fighting" it, is a shameless lie. My view anyway. -- Thanks, Frank. (remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
From: Frank Bemelman on 1 Apr 2006 05:18 "Joerg" <notthisjoergsch(a)removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht news:NTjXf.10737$tN3.1505(a)newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > Hello John, > > > > >>You just proved it > >>yourself. Now be a good man and stop yelling and telling that folks > >>with (liver/lung etc) cancer need to fight their deseases. > > > > --- > > If they don't fight, they won't win. > > > > It's just as simple as that. > > --- > > > > Absolutely. > > BTW, among the 'other' cancers there was lung cancer (survived, so far) > and also esophageal cancer. The latter is considered fatal in 90%+ of > cases yet that patient is in her 5th year now. Very strong will-power. > Ok, the esophagus and stomach are gone but since she lived almost > vegetarian anyway it didn't change her diet too much, just no hard stuff > anymore. It also comes with the burden of remaining seriously > underweight but otherwise she picked up all of her previous activities. Okay, she fell in the group of 10%. How can you be so sure it is due to her strong will power? Did the other 90% of similar patients not have enough will power? Do breast cancer patients have stronger will power than lung cancer patients? Applying your logic, they must have, looking at the statistics of survival for these kinds of cancer. For starters, it makes a great difference if a lung cancer can be operated or not. This largely depends on the location of the tumor. If it is *not* operable, you have to be damn "lucky" to survive another two years - one year is more likely. But if you insist that (severe) patients are helped by fairy tales and need to be told it is all a matter of will power and prayers, continue with your important mission. I strongly wonder if it is something to be proud of; I would be deeply ashamed of such dishonesty. -- Thanks, Frank. (remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
From: Fred Bloggs on 1 Apr 2006 08:47 Frank Bemelman wrote: > "John Fields" <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> schreef in bericht > news:9udr2219a006ltmk7s0rilinfc1i7n5nio(a)4ax.com... > >>On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:05:43 +0200, "Frank Bemelman" >><f.bemelmanq(a)xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote: >> >> >> >>>Okay, but those cancers are a *LOT* less agressive than liver or lung >>>cancer. Here you mention cancers that already have a 80+ or better >>>chance of surviving. >> >>--- >>What are you talking about? No cancer has a chance of surviving if >>it kills its host unless it's put into the ground and given a chance >>to emerge again. >>--- > > > A few messages ago I said: > "Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this > context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an > insult to make patients believe this is an important factor, > almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true > looser." > > If "fighting" is just doing what the doctor proposes, I say you're > right. If "fighting" means the usual pep talk "You can do it", I say > no. And I say that in the context of what started this thread; a person > with an extremely severe form/stage of cancer. > > If you don't treat breast cancer, it will kill the patient. If you > do treat it, and the treatment was not started too late, there is > a great chance of succes. In such case, it's okay to tell a person > to "fight" (as in showing will power etc), because there is very > good chance of succes. Now, if a person has a more agressive kind > cancer like throat/lung/colon/liver cancer or a combination of that, > the chances are pretty grim if not next to nothing. You can have > all the will power in the world, but it is not going to help you. > To tell someone it is all a matter of "fighting" it, is a shameless > lie. > > My view anyway. > If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has befriended a living saint.
From: Frank Bemelman on 1 Apr 2006 09:31
"Fred Bloggs" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht news:442E8462.8090707(a)nospam.com... > > > Frank Bemelman wrote: > > "John Fields" <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> schreef in bericht > > news:9udr2219a006ltmk7s0rilinfc1i7n5nio(a)4ax.com... > > > >>On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:05:43 +0200, "Frank Bemelman" > >><f.bemelmanq(a)xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Okay, but those cancers are a *LOT* less agressive than liver or lung > >>>cancer. Here you mention cancers that already have a 80+ or better > >>>chance of surviving. > >> > >>--- > >>What are you talking about? No cancer has a chance of surviving if > >>it kills its host unless it's put into the ground and given a chance > >>to emerge again. > >>--- > > > > > > A few messages ago I said: > > "Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this > > context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an > > insult to make patients believe this is an important factor, > > almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true > > looser." > > > > If "fighting" is just doing what the doctor proposes, I say you're > > right. If "fighting" means the usual pep talk "You can do it", I say > > no. And I say that in the context of what started this thread; a person > > with an extremely severe form/stage of cancer. > > > > If you don't treat breast cancer, it will kill the patient. If you > > do treat it, and the treatment was not started too late, there is > > a great chance of succes. In such case, it's okay to tell a person > > to "fight" (as in showing will power etc), because there is very > > good chance of succes. Now, if a person has a more agressive kind > > cancer like throat/lung/colon/liver cancer or a combination of that, > > the chances are pretty grim if not next to nothing. You can have > > all the will power in the world, but it is not going to help you. > > To tell someone it is all a matter of "fighting" it, is a shameless > > lie. > > > > My view anyway. > > > > If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then > you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of > patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo > effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we > do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of > something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or > regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer > regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to > have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has > befriended a living saint. But how large is that group? They seem to dissappear in the noise floor... -- Thanks, Frank. (remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email) |