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From: Fred Bloggs on 1 Apr 2006 09:39 Frank Bemelman wrote: > "Fred Bloggs" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht > news:442E8462.8090707(a)nospam.com... > >> >>Frank Bemelman wrote: >> >>>"John Fields" <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> schreef in bericht >>>news:9udr2219a006ltmk7s0rilinfc1i7n5nio(a)4ax.com... >>> >>> >>>>On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:05:43 +0200, "Frank Bemelman" >>>><f.bemelmanq(a)xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Okay, but those cancers are a *LOT* less agressive than liver or lung >>>>>cancer. Here you mention cancers that already have a 80+ or better >>>>>chance of surviving. >>>> >>>>--- >>>>What are you talking about? No cancer has a chance of surviving if >>>>it kills its host unless it's put into the ground and given a chance >>>>to emerge again. >>>>--- >>> >>> >>>A few messages ago I said: >>>"Or is it that I have another definition of "fighting", in this >>>context. I assumed we referred to will power etc here. IMO it's an >>>insult to make patients believe this is an important factor, >>>almost turning it into a cheap contest, where a looser is a true >>>looser." >>> >>>If "fighting" is just doing what the doctor proposes, I say you're >>>right. If "fighting" means the usual pep talk "You can do it", I say >>>no. And I say that in the context of what started this thread; a person >>>with an extremely severe form/stage of cancer. >>> >>>If you don't treat breast cancer, it will kill the patient. If you >>>do treat it, and the treatment was not started too late, there is >>>a great chance of succes. In such case, it's okay to tell a person >>>to "fight" (as in showing will power etc), because there is very >>>good chance of succes. Now, if a person has a more agressive kind >>>cancer like throat/lung/colon/liver cancer or a combination of that, >>>the chances are pretty grim if not next to nothing. You can have >>>all the will power in the world, but it is not going to help you. >>>To tell someone it is all a matter of "fighting" it, is a shameless >>>lie. >>> >>>My view anyway. >>> >> >>If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then >>you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of >>patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo >>effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we >>do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of >>something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or >>regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer >>regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to >>have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has >>befriended a living saint. > > > But how large is that group? They seem to dissappear in the noise > floor... > Sickening isn't it.
From: John Fields on 1 Apr 2006 11:24 On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 16:31:43 +0200, "Frank Bemelman" <f.bemelmanq(a)xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote: >"Fred Bloggs" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht >news:442E8462.8090707(a)nospam.com... >> If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then >> you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of >> patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo >> effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we >> do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of >> something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or >> regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer >> regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to >> have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has >> befriended a living saint. > >But how large is that group? They seem to dissappear in the noise >floor... --- Perhaps it would be much larger if its members hadn't been convinced that their situation was hopeless and allowed themselves to die without even _trying_ to fight. -- John Fields Professional Circuit Designer
From: Fred Bloggs on 1 Apr 2006 11:27 John Fields wrote: > On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 16:31:43 +0200, "Frank Bemelman" > <f.bemelmanq(a)xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote: > > >>"Fred Bloggs" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht >>news:442E8462.8090707(a)nospam.com... >> >>>If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then >>>you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of >>>patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo >>>effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we >>>do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of >>>something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or >>>regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer >>>regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to >>>have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has >>>befriended a living saint. >> >>But how large is that group? They seem to dissappear in the noise >>floor... > > > --- > Perhaps it would be much larger if its members hadn't been convinced > that their situation was hopeless and allowed themselves to die > without even _trying_ to fight. > Most victims are very old and it's their time to go anyway- they don't have much time left even without the cancer.
From: Frank Bemelman on 1 Apr 2006 12:31 "John Fields" <jfields(a)austininstruments.com> schreef in bericht news:5n9t229ealrkbdu67f339svu1nku18ee14(a)4ax.com... > On Sat, 1 Apr 2006 16:31:43 +0200, "Frank Bemelman" > <f.bemelmanq(a)xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote: > > >"Fred Bloggs" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht > >news:442E8462.8090707(a)nospam.com... > >> If you are specifically talking about the paradigm of "fighting" then > >> you have no argument from me, but when you move to a higher plane of > >> patient *belief* , you are in the domain of the so-called *placebo > >> effect* and there is VERY strong rock solid scientific evidence that we > >> do have the ability to self-heal whatever afflicts us- short of > >> something really dramatic like re-growing an amputated limb or > >> regenerating nonregenerative cell tissue. I contend that any cancer > >> regardless of its severity can be cured this way, but the patient has to > >> have developed pronounced powers of spirituality to achieve it- or has > >> befriended a living saint. > > > >But how large is that group? They seem to dissappear in the noise > >floor... > > --- > Perhaps it would be much larger if its members hadn't been convinced > that their situation was hopeless and allowed themselves to die > without even _trying_ to fight. > -- 2 * 0 = 0. -- Thanks, Frank. (remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
From: Joerg on 1 Apr 2006 14:11
Hello Frank, > > Okay, she fell in the group of 10%. How can you be so sure it is due > to her strong will power? Did the other 90% of similar patients not > have enough will power? > The ones I knew who had emotionally given up are all dead by now, from the group that fought it some are dead and some are remarkably well. > Do breast cancer patients have stronger will power than lung cancer > patients? Applying your logic, they must have, looking at the > statistics of survival for these kinds of cancer. > Frank, now you are twisting my arguments. Let's not go there. > For starters, it makes a great difference if a lung cancer can be > operated or not. This largely depends on the location of the > tumor. If it is *not* operable, you have to be damn "lucky" to > survive another two years - one year is more likely. > Sure. But there is a huge difference in what you can achieve in that year or two. You can sit on the couch in self-pity. Then you may not even exercise anymore (saying "what good does it do" or whatever), quit eating well and so on. This will increase your misery. Or, you can go out there and do good works and feel as a contributor to society. Big difference. One of the striking examples was a California politician. He was on the other side of my political convictions but I admired him, still do. Robert Matsui told the public that he had a cancer that would destroy his red blood cells and there really isn't a cure. He just kept going, made sure his affairs and those of his constituents were in order and after he passed away his wife Doris was elected into that office. Also a remarkable woman. Some people cannot emotionally deal with it all. If they want to they can get help. That is one of the ministries we provide around here and it costs nothing. Except gasoline for the car and time but the caregivers (all volunteers) provide that. > But if you insist that (severe) patients are helped by fairy tales > and need to be told it is all a matter of will power and prayers, > continue with your important mission. I strongly wonder if it is > something to be proud of; I would be deeply ashamed of such dishonesty. > > We'll never agree on this. I am with Jim, John and others. You have a different opinion, and that's ok. Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com |