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From: Excognito on 10 Aug 2010 02:44 On 10 Aug, 04:11, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 9, 5:32 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 9 Aug, 18:06, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 8, 10:21 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 7 Aug, 14:09, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 5, 5:56 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:30, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 4:25 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:08, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 12:45 pm, "Otto Bahn" <Ladybrr...(a)GroinToHell..com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The question > > > > > > > > > is when does a fetus become a human being. > > > > > > > > > ANSWER THAT or shut up. > > > > > > > > > At the moment it is born, according to the law and the Constitution > > > > > > > > says that all person's born in the US are citizens of the US. It > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. he US. It > > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Several states have laws on fetal homicide, > > > > > > > > Abortion is not considered homicide. It is only defined as murder in > > > > > > > relation to a physical attack on the mother, and for no other > > > > > > > purpose. These laws are meant to grant more rights to the mother in > > > > > > > terms of spousal abuse (which the vast majority of these cases stem > > > > > > > from) and other attack, not the fetus. They all contain exemptions > > > > > > > for legal abortion, they would have to otherwise they would be > > > > > > > unenforceable per the courts. These laws do not confer any specific > > > > > > > rights to the fetus. > > > > > > > I'm not a lawyer and don't have time to read the corresponding state > > > > > > laws in detail or conduct a case law review, however, I would not like > > > > > > to defend your position in some states, eg Michigan - my initial > > > > > > reading is that unless it a 'legal' abortion, it may be prosecutable > > > > > > as homicide under some circumstances. Furthermore, several other > > > > > > states' definitions of fetal homicide would seem to cover the case > > > > > > where somebody deliberately harms the fetus with no intent to harm the > > > > > > mother (eg, spiking a drink). The whole area seems to be a mess, with > > > > > > apparently contradictory laws and punishments depending upon whether > > > > > > the person carrying out the abortion is a medical practitioner or > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > Of note, however, is that several states define a fetus as a human > > > > > > being that has a separate identity from its mother, eg in Oklahoma: > > > > > > > Section 24-691 of Title 21 > > > > > > A. Homicide is the killing of one human being by another. > > > > > > B. As used in this section, "human being" includes an unborn child, as > > > > > > defined in Section 1-730 of Title 63 of the Oklahoma Statutes. > > > > > > > Section 1-730 of Title 63 > > > > > > 4. "Unborn child" means the unborn offspring of human beings from the > > > > > > moment of conception, through pregnancy, and until live birth > > > > > > including the human conceptus, zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo and > > > > > > fetus;- Hide quoted text - > > > > > Read the law in it's entirety, not just the sections that you believe > > > > > prove your point. > > > > > The law in its entirety, eh? > > > >> From an argumentative point of view, I need do nothing more than > > > > provide evidence that supports my position. > > > Cutting sections of the law out of context to the full law, and full > > > meaning of that law does not constitute evidence. > > > And what's that got to do with the price of eggs? > The fact that you are trying to use deceit to prove a point. Oh dear. You still haven't got the idea of reasoned argument, have you? Another bare assertion fallacy, coupled to an ad hominem. My 'trying to use deceit' cannot be regarded as a fact until you have established that I am being deceitful by providing an argument based upon evidence, which is going to be interesting as you need to prove intent in addition to error - there's always the outside chance that I could simply be mistaken. However, I'm going to hypothesize that the real reason that you resort to this tactic is that you have no reasoned argument to make, otherwise you'd have made it, and thus have no choice but to resort to bluster. :-)
From: Jimbo on 10 Aug 2010 07:56 On Aug 10, 2:44 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On 10 Aug, 04:11, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 9, 5:32 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 9 Aug, 18:06, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 8, 10:21 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On 7 Aug, 14:09, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 5:56 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:30, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 4:25 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:08, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 12:45 pm, "Otto Bahn" <Ladybrr...(a)GroinToHell.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The question > > > > > > > > > > is when does a fetus become a human being. > > > > > > > > > > ANSWER THAT or shut up. > > > > > > > > > > At the moment it is born, according to the law and the Constitution > > > > > > > > > says that all person's born in the US are citizens of the US. It > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. he US. It > > > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Several states have laws on fetal homicide, > > > > > > > > > Abortion is not considered homicide. It is only defined as murder in > > > > > > > > relation to a physical attack on the mother, and for no other > > > > > > > > purpose. These laws are meant to grant more rights to the mother in > > > > > > > > terms of spousal abuse (which the vast majority of these cases stem > > > > > > > > from) and other attack, not the fetus. They all contain exemptions > > > > > > > > for legal abortion, they would have to otherwise they would be > > > > > > > > unenforceable per the courts. These laws do not confer any specific > > > > > > > > rights to the fetus. > > > > > > > > I'm not a lawyer and don't have time to read the corresponding state > > > > > > > laws in detail or conduct a case law review, however, I would not like > > > > > > > to defend your position in some states, eg Michigan - my initial > > > > > > > reading is that unless it a 'legal' abortion, it may be prosecutable > > > > > > > as homicide under some circumstances. Furthermore, several other > > > > > > > states' definitions of fetal homicide would seem to cover the case > > > > > > > where somebody deliberately harms the fetus with no intent to harm the > > > > > > > mother (eg, spiking a drink). The whole area seems to be a mess, with > > > > > > > apparently contradictory laws and punishments depending upon whether > > > > > > > the person carrying out the abortion is a medical practitioner or > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > Of note, however, is that several states define a fetus as a human > > > > > > > being that has a separate identity from its mother, eg in Oklahoma: > > > > > > > > Section 24-691 of Title 21 > > > > > > > A. Homicide is the killing of one human being by another. > > > > > > > B. As used in this section, "human being" includes an unborn child, as > > > > > > > defined in Section 1-730 of Title 63 of the Oklahoma Statutes.. > > > > > > > > Section 1-730 of Title 63 > > > > > > > 4. "Unborn child" means the unborn offspring of human beings from the > > > > > > > moment of conception, through pregnancy, and until live birth > > > > > > > including the human conceptus, zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo and > > > > > > > fetus;- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > Read the law in it's entirety, not just the sections that you believe > > > > > > prove your point. > > > > > > The law in its entirety, eh? > > > > >> From an argumentative point of view, I need do nothing more than > > > > > provide evidence that supports my position. > > > > Cutting sections of the law out of context to the full law, and full > > > > meaning of that law does not constitute evidence. > > > > And what's that got to do with the price of eggs? > > The fact that you are trying to use deceit to prove a point. > > Oh dear. You still haven't got the idea of reasoned argument, Since you are using deceit, you have made no reasoned argument.
From: Excognito on 10 Aug 2010 08:19 On Aug 10, 12:56 pm, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 10, 2:44 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 10 Aug, 04:11, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 9, 5:32 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 9 Aug, 18:06, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 8, 10:21 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 7 Aug, 14:09, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 5:56 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:30, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 4:25 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:08, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 12:45 pm, "Otto Bahn" <Ladybrr...(a)GroinToHell.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The question > > > > > > > > > > > is when does a fetus become a human being. > > > > > > > > > > > ANSWER THAT or shut up. > > > > > > > > > > > At the moment it is born, according to the law and the Constitution > > > > > > > > > > says that all person's born in the US are citizens of the US. It > > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. he US. It > > > > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Several states have laws on fetal homicide, > > > > > > > > > > Abortion is not considered homicide. It is only defined as murder in > > > > > > > > > relation to a physical attack on the mother, and for no other > > > > > > > > > purpose. These laws are meant to grant more rights to the mother in > > > > > > > > > terms of spousal abuse (which the vast majority of these cases stem > > > > > > > > > from) and other attack, not the fetus. They all contain exemptions > > > > > > > > > for legal abortion, they would have to otherwise they would be > > > > > > > > > unenforceable per the courts. These laws do not confer any specific > > > > > > > > > rights to the fetus. > > > > > > > > > I'm not a lawyer and don't have time to read the corresponding state > > > > > > > > laws in detail or conduct a case law review, however, I would not like > > > > > > > > to defend your position in some states, eg Michigan - my initial > > > > > > > > reading is that unless it a 'legal' abortion, it may be prosecutable > > > > > > > > as homicide under some circumstances. Furthermore, several other > > > > > > > > states' definitions of fetal homicide would seem to cover the case > > > > > > > > where somebody deliberately harms the fetus with no intent to harm the > > > > > > > > mother (eg, spiking a drink). The whole area seems to be a mess, with > > > > > > > > apparently contradictory laws and punishments depending upon whether > > > > > > > > the person carrying out the abortion is a medical practitioner or > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > Of note, however, is that several states define a fetus as a human > > > > > > > > being that has a separate identity from its mother, eg in Oklahoma: > > > > > > > > > Section 24-691 of Title 21 > > > > > > > > A. Homicide is the killing of one human being by another. > > > > > > > > B. As used in this section, "human being" includes an unborn child, as > > > > > > > > defined in Section 1-730 of Title 63 of the Oklahoma Statutes. > > > > > > > > > Section 1-730 of Title 63 > > > > > > > > 4. "Unborn child" means the unborn offspring of human beings from the > > > > > > > > moment of conception, through pregnancy, and until live birth > > > > > > > > including the human conceptus, zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo and > > > > > > > > fetus;- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > Read the law in it's entirety, not just the sections that you believe > > > > > > > prove your point. > > > > > > > The law in its entirety, eh? > > > > > >> From an argumentative point of view, I need do nothing more than > > > > > > provide evidence that supports my position. > > > > > Cutting sections of the law out of context to the full law, and full > > > > > meaning of that law does not constitute evidence. > > > > > And what's that got to do with the price of eggs? > > > The fact that you are trying to use deceit to prove a point. > > > Oh dear. You still haven't got the idea of reasoned argument, > > Since you are using deceit, you have made no reasoned argument. No, you still haven't presented a reasoned argument. Sorry to have to break this to you., but 'Jimbo says so' isn't accepted as a justification under any formal debating rules in the word ... with the possible exception of the Kangaroo Court you run appear to be running in your head. I've been in arguments before with a couple of people who follow similar discourse patterns to the one you are displaying. Once they run out of any arguments that make any sense even to them, they just drop back on automatic gainsaying or making unsupported statements in the hope that the other party will give up - at which point they then claim they 'won' because the other party implicity conceded defeat, thus providing all the justification they need to continue with their erroneous position. I do hope this isn't descriptive of you, Jimbo.
From: Dr. HotSalt on 10 Aug 2010 09:17 On Aug 10, 4:56 am, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 10, 2:44 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 10 Aug, 04:11, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Aug 9, 5:32 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 9 Aug, 18:06, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Aug 8, 10:21 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On 7 Aug, 14:09, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 5:56 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:30, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 4:25 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:08, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 12:45 pm, "Otto Bahn" <Ladybrr...(a)GroinToHell.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > The question > > > > > > > > > > > is when does a fetus become a human being. > > > > > > > > > > > ANSWER THAT or shut up. > > > > > > > > > > > At the moment it is born, according to the law and the Constitution > > > > > > > > > > says that all person's born in the US are citizens of the US. It > > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. he US. It > > > > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Several states have laws on fetal homicide, > > > > > > > > > > Abortion is not considered homicide. It is only defined as murder in > > > > > > > > > relation to a physical attack on the mother, and for no other > > > > > > > > > purpose. These laws are meant to grant more rights to the mother in > > > > > > > > > terms of spousal abuse (which the vast majority of these cases stem > > > > > > > > > from) and other attack, not the fetus. They all contain exemptions > > > > > > > > > for legal abortion, they would have to otherwise they would be > > > > > > > > > unenforceable per the courts. These laws do not confer any specific > > > > > > > > > rights to the fetus. > > > > > > > > > I'm not a lawyer and don't have time to read the corresponding state > > > > > > > > laws in detail or conduct a case law review, however, I would not like > > > > > > > > to defend your position in some states, eg Michigan - my initial > > > > > > > > reading is that unless it a 'legal' abortion, it may be prosecutable > > > > > > > > as homicide under some circumstances. Furthermore, several other > > > > > > > > states' definitions of fetal homicide would seem to cover the case > > > > > > > > where somebody deliberately harms the fetus with no intent to harm the > > > > > > > > mother (eg, spiking a drink). The whole area seems to be a mess, with > > > > > > > > apparently contradictory laws and punishments depending upon whether > > > > > > > > the person carrying out the abortion is a medical practitioner or > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > Of note, however, is that several states define a fetus as a human > > > > > > > > being that has a separate identity from its mother, eg in Oklahoma: > > > > > > > > > Section 24-691 of Title 21 > > > > > > > > A. Homicide is the killing of one human being by another. > > > > > > > > B. As used in this section, "human being" includes an unborn child, as > > > > > > > > defined in Section 1-730 of Title 63 of the Oklahoma Statutes. > > > > > > > > > Section 1-730 of Title 63 > > > > > > > > 4. "Unborn child" means the unborn offspring of human beings from the > > > > > > > > moment of conception, through pregnancy, and until live birth > > > > > > > > including the human conceptus, zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo and > > > > > > > > fetus;- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > Read the law in it's entirety, not just the sections that you believe > > > > > > > prove your point. > > > > > > > The law in its entirety, eh? > > > > > >> From an argumentative point of view, I need do nothing more than > > > > > > provide evidence that supports my position. > > > > > Cutting sections of the law out of context to the full law, and full > > > > > meaning of that law does not constitute evidence. > > > > > And what's that got to do with the price of eggs? > > > The fact that you are trying to use deceit to prove a point. > > > Oh dear. You still haven't got the idea of reasoned argument, > > Since you are using deceit, you have made no reasoned argument. I see no "deceit" on Excognito's part. You wrote: * Abortion is not considered homicide. It is only defined as murder in * relation to a physical attack on the mother, and for no other * purpose. Excognito cited to Oklahoma law defining "homicide" as "the killing of one human being by another" with the term "human being" specifically stated to be inclusive of "unborn child", clearly contradicting your "no other purpose". You seem to be implying there is further law there which supersedes that with an exemption for abortion, but you have not so far cited it. Just thought I'd point that out. Mark L. Fergerson
From: Jimbo on 11 Aug 2010 16:21
On Aug 10, 8:19 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 10, 12:56 pm, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 10, 2:44 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On 10 Aug, 04:11, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Aug 9, 5:32 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On 9 Aug, 18:06, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Aug 8, 10:21 am, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 7 Aug, 14:09, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 5:56 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:30, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 4:25 pm, Excognito <stuartbr...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5 Aug, 21:08, Jimbo <ckdbig...(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 12:45 pm, "Otto Bahn" <Ladybrr...(a)GroinToHell.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The question > > > > > > > > > > > > is when does a fetus become a human being. > > > > > > > > > > > > ANSWER THAT or shut up. > > > > > > > > > > > > At the moment it is born, according to the law and the Constitution > > > > > > > > > > > says that all person's born in the US are citizens of the US. It > > > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. he US. It > > > > > > > > > > > > > makes no mention of the pre-born, nor post living. > > > > > > > > > > > > Incorrect. Several states have laws on fetal homicide, > > > > > > > > > > > Abortion is not considered homicide. It is only defined as murder in > > > > > > > > > > relation to a physical attack on the mother, and for no other > > > > > > > > > > purpose. These laws are meant to grant more rights to the mother in > > > > > > > > > > terms of spousal abuse (which the vast majority of these cases stem > > > > > > > > > > from) and other attack, not the fetus. They all contain exemptions > > > > > > > > > > for legal abortion, they would have to otherwise they would be > > > > > > > > > > unenforceable per the courts. These laws do not confer any specific > > > > > > > > > > rights to the fetus. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not a lawyer and don't have time to read the corresponding state > > > > > > > > > laws in detail or conduct a case law review, however, I would not like > > > > > > > > > to defend your position in some states, eg Michigan - my initial > > > > > > > > > reading is that unless it a 'legal' abortion, it may be prosecutable > > > > > > > > > as homicide under some circumstances. Furthermore, several other > > > > > > > > > states' definitions of fetal homicide would seem to cover the case > > > > > > > > > where somebody deliberately harms the fetus with no intent to harm the > > > > > > > > > mother (eg, spiking a drink). The whole area seems to be a mess, with > > > > > > > > > apparently contradictory laws and punishments depending upon whether > > > > > > > > > the person carrying out the abortion is a medical practitioner or > > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > Of note, however, is that several states define a fetus as a human > > > > > > > > > being that has a separate identity from its mother, eg in Oklahoma: > > > > > > > > > > Section 24-691 of Title 21 > > > > > > > > > A. Homicide is the killing of one human being by another. > > > > > > > > > B. As used in this section, "human being" includes an unborn child, as > > > > > > > > > defined in Section 1-730 of Title 63 of the Oklahoma Statutes. > > > > > > > > > > Section 1-730 of Title 63 > > > > > > > > > 4. "Unborn child" means the unborn offspring of human beings from the > > > > > > > > > moment of conception, through pregnancy, and until live birth > > > > > > > > > including the human conceptus, zygote, morula, blastocyst, embryo and > > > > > > > > > fetus;- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > Read the law in it's entirety, not just the sections that you believe > > > > > > > > prove your point. > > > > > > > > The law in its entirety, eh? > > > > > > >> From an argumentative point of view, I need do nothing more than > > > > > > > provide evidence that supports my position. > > > > > > Cutting sections of the law out of context to the full law, and full > > > > > > meaning of that law does not constitute evidence. > > > > > > And what's that got to do with the price of eggs? > > > > The fact that you are trying to use deceit to prove a point. > > > > Oh dear. You still haven't got the idea of reasoned argument, > > > Since you are using deceit, you have made no reasoned argument. > > No, you still haven't presented a reasoned argument. > You have not presented a reasoned case to argue against. |