What is wrong with this argument?
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From: SOB) on 31 Mar 2005 13:01 On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:11:40 -0500, "Dan Listermann" <dan(a)listermann.com> wrote: >> The human imagination is not capable of causing anything to exist in >> objective reality. Here we use the word "cause" to mean "efficient >> cause". >Hence the nonexistance of real deities. I fully agree with you that dieties constructed subjectively in the mind do not exist. However, that does not mean there is not one entity in objective reality who is the cause of Existence. In fact the Supreme Being must exist in order for the Universe to exist. -- Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html "If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
From: SOB) on 31 Mar 2005 13:10 On 31 Mar 2005 06:21:26 -0800, "Hector Plasmic" <hec(a)hectorplasmic.com> wrote: >>>> So God does nothing but exist? > >> That's pretty much it. >... >> God made the Universe to exist. > >Then this god of yours does something besides exist -- it also causes >other things to exist. Ergo, it acts, the very thing you were trying >to avoid. It is the Act of Existence. There is no additional act necessary. Just by being itself other things come into existence. Aquinas, when he discussed Metaphysics and not Theology, had no trouble with the Universe existing for all time. In fact it makes more sense that way, because as you point out, for the Universe to come into being at come particular time would require an additional act on the part of God. But God doesn't do additional acts - what you see is what you get when it comes to God the Supreme Being. Therefore the material world, the Universe (and that does not mean just out little corner which we call the universe with a small "u"), is a property of Reality. IOW, when you describe Reality, be sure to include the material Universe. Some might claim that is pantheistic, but I do not pay any attention because there is an aspect of pantheism in any metaphysical description of reality if you include the Supreme Being. The upshot of all this is that God is the Act that causes things to Exist and be the kinds of things that they are. These things - the constituents of our physical Universe - are the result of that Act of Existence. Therefore in this line of thinking, the Universe is just as necessary as God, because the Universe is part of the Act of Existence. There was no separate creation in time. Maybe our little corner (or is it bubble - cf. Brian Green for a description of String Theory's take on creation) of the Universe came about in time. But the physical Universe is eternal. Even though it is necessary and eternal, the Universe nevertheless depends critically on the Supreme Being for its Existence. The Universe cannot be the cause of its own existence because it is mutable and that means its Existence is separate from its Essence. -- Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html "If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
From: SOB) on 31 Mar 2005 13:11 On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:27:16 -0500, "Dan Listermann" <dan(a)listermann.com> wrote: >> In Existential Metaphysics, God (the Supreme Being) is not a thing. >> God is an Act. God is the Act of Being, the cause of Existence. >It strikes me that you are merely anthropomorphizing the unknown. I suppose >this is OK so long as it does not cause you to do silly and wasteful things >like mumbling to yourself a lot. It strikes me that you are merely too dull to understand Existential Metaphysics. Try not to mumble too much. -- Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html "If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
From: SOB) on 31 Mar 2005 13:13 On 31 Mar 2005 06:31:56 -0800, "Hector Plasmic" <hec(a)hectorplasmic.com> wrote: >>> In Existential Metaphysics, God (the Supreme Being) is >>> not a thing. God is an Act. God is the Act of Being, the >>> cause of Existence. >> It strikes me that you are merely anthropomorphizing the >> unknown. >Indeed, he is merely using the word "God" in place of "existence." >NOP. No useful information contained herein. Not quite true. But then you would have to be skilled at Existential Metaphysics to understand the information contained therein. That requires that you also be skilled at Physics or else you will never understand Metaphysics. It turns out that there is no useful information in your comment above. -- Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html "If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
From: SOB) on 31 Mar 2005 13:14
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:56:04 -0500, Christopher A. Lee <calee(a)optonline.net> wrote: >>Indeed, he is merely using the word "God" in place of "existence." >>NOP. No useful information contained herein. >It enables him to both equivocate and obfuscate. >It also gets in the way of discussion. If all you hear is noise it's because you are too dull to understand the concepts being presented. Now don't you get in the way of the discussion. There are some pretty smart people in this discussion who want to participate. -- Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html "If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life." |